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The Rather Large Hyperspace Array (Map rearrangement concept)

Wes

Wes

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Yamatai used to be able to move stars around. This was not used often, but it was useful. We used it to help the Lorath move Lor into the current Lorath space, and we used to to move Hanako's Star from the Bard Cluster to the Ketsurui Military Sector. We need to regain this capability, for OOC reasons as much as IC ones.

So I've been thinking that Yamatai should rebuild the hyperspace fold systems used in Hoshi no Iori in the form of a "Rather Large Hyperspace Array," (RLHA) as I'm calling it for the time being. Here's how it would work: Every X period of time the array could be charged and positioned, and it would move solar systems around on the map. It would be good for consolidating Yamatai.

What would I actually do with it?
  1. Move Hanako's Star back closer to Core Yamatai at or near where it was before. This would be the start of basically clearing Yamatai out of the Ketsurui Military Sector, freeing that corner of the map for some future faction to colonize. Of all the systems down there, it's the one I care about the most because my plot's based there and many other plots visit it.
  2. Put New Elysia in the Elysian Suzerainty's current territorial zone that way it'll be in there with the rest of the Elysian worlds if/when Yamatai gives Elysia its independence.
What I would not do with it:
  1. No moving the extremely established systems like Nepleslia or Yamatai
  2. No abusing this as some sort of superweapon
The idea is that Yamatai would have this capability IC to give us an OOC excuse to move stuff around. After the two moves listed above, I would have the RLHA go into long-term maintenance until it was needed. I don't really want to start moving things all around willy nilly, but I do think these two moves would be useful to the site as a whole.

What's your thoughts on this plan?
 
Honestly? I'd do something in character to justify a lack of usage on it. Maybe have it be a piece of alien tech someone in a plot finds, sends off to headquarters, and moves on? That way, you can use it a few times to make the moves you're thinking of, then it can "break" in character, and being alien tech, we won't be able to fix it immediately like we would something one of us had developed. That keeps it as part of the canon, gets it's functional usage out of the way, and then explains, IC, why it's not being used.
 
Assuming this stays within it's intended uses, I think it's a great tool that can solve some current and future OOC squabbles about how Yamatai's territory is determined and laid out with the huge swath heading southwestward that was the KMS... Nepleslia is much more consolidated and logical in comparison.

@Aendri has a good suggestion to explain why it can only work very rarely, Perhaps it's some kind of Black Claw Empire ruin that can be found by a SAINT team, like what was proposed way back for the universal FTL speed reduction? And when it blows, they have to find more of certain components, etc
 
Oh wow, I'm not happy to see something like this crop up again.

I'd rather do without, as I think the problems you speak of Wes are good problems to have; which are praiseworthy of a setting which has grown organically.

If you're fond of Hanako's World, I think you could simply relocate over there and focus your efforts there, especially if you actually plan to go through with certain Uesu exodus fleet metaplot hints.

An example:
Say the Miharu plot would've ended with Eve winning, then going and employing the Second Draconian Fleet - under mind control - to conquer Yamatai. She might have gone and steamrolled over most of what Central Yamatai is, displacing a lot of the Star Army to have to reconsolidate elsewhere; giving us a "hostile" Yamataian Empire that other people could fight against in the middle, with the "playable" Yamatai being based on the Ketsurui Military Sector.

I kind of projected the above being a possible outcome for the Uesu Exodus Fleet whenever it gets to happen, eventually, someday as a medium of great movement/reconsolidation... but the RLHA just has me go "yuck"
 
Personally, I'm with you on the idea, Fred. I'd rather not see it happen at all. But if it happens, I'd rather see it happen as a limited use, plot related thing, instead of just a random piece of technology Yamatai develops and then never touches again.
 
Since it's existing technology, there's not much to fault with the concept of taking HnI's equipment out of mothballs for the specific task of moving Hanako's World or other places that'd come within the OOC guidelines you've talked about here.
 
Point stands. It's a matter of building solidly established technology and it sounds like Wes is pretty on top of using it responsibly, which is the only real concern here, right?
 
Trust has never been a commodity when it comes to dealing with Yamatai, though. For pretty much anyone, including most of Yamatai itself.
 
Trust? I don't care about trust. Trust has no bearing on an OoC concern in my eyes. What I care about not being wishy-wishy about decisions taken, and then commitment to them especially when they were done in the name of keeping things tasteful.

I maintain that there was a good reason why the Battle of Yamatai was used to remove Hoshi no Iori from existence; which was to put out of play a piece of overpowered technology which had been evaluated as not desirable in the setting.

Moving star systems, and even wanting to move star system, qualified as wierd. It shouldn't even be plausible, to the point where it's pretty much an unthinkable solution. It's not because it was done a couple of times in the past that the error should be compounded on. You realized that at some point Wes and acted on it, and it was one of the few good things that the Battle of Yamatai achieved.
 
I do love that name.

And as much as I think it'd be a cool thing to build a plot around or to go visit, I think I agree with Fred that we really don't want this can of worms in the RP. It complicates already nebulously defined FTL rules and if this exists then it makes sense that anyone would be able to build one given enough time and resources.

I could see maybe moving uninhabited planets with purpose built-super-structures, but ultimately I think structures of this size aren't really in SARP's scale at the moment.
 
I'm a little confused why this is necessary?

I mean, let's stop a moment and thing how freaking AWFUL this would be to stellar dynamics. We're in a society where effective immortality is possible. This is a device that will take centuries to TRULY screw stuff up, but screw stuff up it will. You move a star around, you're effecting gravity wells and stellar dynamics for dozens of light years away, you are changing how ENTIRE STAR SYSTEMS FLY ABOUT and that gravity is going to effect everything it passes by. You are going to throw rogue planets about, you're going to deform how star systems swing around each other in this galaxy, and probably cause them to swing into ONE ANOTHER. Even just moving it someplace else, assuming it doesn't deform gravity wells as it moves, is going to cause this over the course of centuries and people are going to be thinking about that sort of thing because this is something that will effect all of their lives because with ST tech, people are effectively immortal.

It also can be used OFFENSIVELY, what's to stop this from slinging planets, or stars, into enemy star systems?

Why wasn't this used to effectively wipe out the NTX?

Why not use this to move core systems?

Any OOC promise, to not break suspension of disbelief, needs to have IC reasons backing it. It can't just be a promise, there has to be an IC reason for it to make sense for why people DON'T do it above and beyond 'nobody is that big of a jerk' because we have more than enough historical precedent that 'yes, somebody is that big of a jerk'.

The entire thing is a can of worms and a level of power WAY too freaking high for anybody in the setting. This is Kardeschev II-III scale building, many MANY solar systems worth of resources, their entire total energy output, thrown to achieve something like this, for almost NO POINT AT ALL given how fast terraforming can take place, which as I understand it, is a process of a few decades at most.

Why move a star system around? There's hundreds of the bloody things in this part of space alone. If we assume that the map marks approximately a 50 or so light year box (It doesn't, it marks about 200x200ly box) then it'd contain, based on what's around earth, 2000 star systems. With around 130 of those MAJORLY SIGNIFICANT in some form, just from their planets (and that's if it was a 50ly radius -sphere-)

You raise that number to approximately the 4th power, and then some, for the area of space we are currently covering.

There is literally, positively, no possible reason, at all, in any way, shape, or form, this device would be necessary. You'd spend less energy just terraforming planets and moving people to them than you would moving stars around with already inhabitable systems.

Also, and this is important, REMEMBER THE RULE OF TECHNOLOGY! ANY SUFFICIENTLY ADVANCED ENERGY SOURCE IS JUST A GUN WITH A SPECILIZED TRIGGER.

If we've got the energy to move -stars- around, then you have an equal amount of energy to be able to deploy as WEAPON SYSTEMS.

So if I might say. "Screw Yamatai having this. Screw -anyone- having this unless we want to scale this out of military sci-fi and into god-war sci-fi"

edit: To be clear, this is something that isn't even in the area of 'hard sci-fi' versus 'rule of cool', it's a problem of scale and power level.
 
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I'm with @Fred. Let consequences happen, hard as they might be.

Hanako's World becomes even more of a cool, precious outpost with it way out there. It's more interesting that way.

@shadowclasper, you're coming into this without the context the vets do. Your concerns have been raised and upheld, then set aside, then upheld again, then set aside ... and so on.

No need for caps on this. Points appreciated, though.
 
Why question is: Why do these things in universe at all?

You want to move Hanako's world to remove Yamataian presence from somewhere, so someone else can use the space? Is this to clear out space so you can have had a faction there the whole time? Would this completely erase the history of the sector in the process, or is it purely for the sake of not having some new group moving into the area have interactions with Hanako's world?

You want to move New Elysia to be near the rest of Elysia's territory? This one makes more sense to me, but at the same time are you doing it purely so that there is no squabbling over territorial matters?

I don't have an issue with the machine's existence, I have issue with this machine existing purely as a narrative device. This is deus ex machina, in the theatrical sense. God swings in on a crane from stage left at the end of act three, telling everyone to be cool and all conflict is ended. In the process; removing what could be moving, or character building scenes where the same thing happens but other people grow and learn from the experience.

You are whipping out a machine for the sake of... Not having to roleplay disputes? Disputes where people could play out cool stuff, and have fun and enjoy this world, community, forum and website in the process?

If you really are adamant about doing this anyway? If you're going to be doing this for the sake of preventing in-character conflict for out-of-character reasons, why not just retcon their locations? It'll give just as much narrative whiplash, but at least it won't be causing narrative issues in the future when people have to dance around out of universe restrictions on in universe technology.
 
Dig if you will, some context.

SARP has a long history, a deep canon and a rich playerbase. It's also a community, a family.

There are things we've created here -- stories, characters, settings -- that hold value to us beyond their place in the canon. They are touchstones that bring us back to SARP over and over. They might really only matter to one person, but they matter.

Would you like those things destroyed? Would you like to have your fun ruined, just so some piece of a story, or someone else's setting piece, isn't offended or harmed? The site's not so appealing now, is it.

In that sense, you could argue we're fighting over toys and turf when we should be thinking about the story as a whole, the complete setting. The whims of one outweighed by the good of all. Sometimes, that's how it works.

But if we can come up with a solution that minimizes harm to all and upholds that heartfelt whim, why shouldn't we do it? We're all SARPers here; we've all been there, or will soon enough.

My point is that while nothing is sacred, that doesn't mean it must suffer the slaughter. Wes' solution to his Hanako's World problem is a first stab using some canon elements. We're working out now how much harm or risk to the setting we want to accept when it comes to fulfilling that need of his to save a beloved setting piece (for reasons pretty altruistic -- making room for others).

Right now, sounds like we might not want to risk using such a powerful tool just for him. That's cool. But in that case, what can we do to balance it some?

For me, I think it's worth having the next faction enjoying a lot of star systems but enjoying/suffering with Hanako's World as its major trade hub.
 
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I'm a little confused why Hanako's world must move at all, given the nature of FTL in this setting of taking just as little at 5 hours to cross 200 light years.

Given that you cannot intercept FTL, there is absolutely no reason for borders, as they exist in the setting, it exist at all, or not overlap. Whoever builds up the largest presence in a star system and the most infrastructure first owns that star system because they have the most invested in it and the most defenses stuck in, meaning they could hold out until reinforcements (never more than 5 hours away) arrive.

Borders -really- don't make much sense in this setting except as a line in the sand or, perhaps, if you can sense ships traveling at FTL, as sensor network locations.

Leave the planet where it is.
 
Wes if you want more room for other factions, just expand the starmap, or actually make the star cluster thing happen
 
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