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Why are people reluctant to switch to a Yamataian body?
- Thread starter Fred
- Start date
Fred
Retired Staff
I've never seen you balk about NH-17 having to mandatorily upgrade to the NH-29 neko body. Geshrin to Yamataian is pretty much the same thing.
Besides, I don't see how you came to that reasoning. As far as I know the core races are:
Besides, I don't see how you came to that reasoning. As far as I know the core races are:
- Yamataians
- Nepleslians
- Nekovalkyrjas (standard, samurai)
- Elysians (plebians, archangels)
Yangfan
Inactive Member
Whoa. We're talking about touching people's character sheets here, Fred. Expect people to get emotional about this. A few points to consider:
* Yamatai is elitist, yes, but not racist. Geshrins shouldn't have to upgrade as long as they can perform their duties, and the same goes for Nepleslians.
* It would be a bad move (ICly) to do something that could potentially drive talent and experience away from the SAoY, particularly since the SAoY's weak point is its personnels' general lack of experience, especially in its officer ranks.
* Just because the original Geshrins had no problem with upgrading their bodies doesn't mean that their children won't. I expect that most of them will follow in their parents footsteps, but at least a few will rebel against this notion of body-swapping.
Of course, I have no problem with taking Geshrins out of the CCG. But I say leave existing characters alone.
* Yamatai is elitist, yes, but not racist. Geshrins shouldn't have to upgrade as long as they can perform their duties, and the same goes for Nepleslians.
* It would be a bad move (ICly) to do something that could potentially drive talent and experience away from the SAoY, particularly since the SAoY's weak point is its personnels' general lack of experience, especially in its officer ranks.
* Just because the original Geshrins had no problem with upgrading their bodies doesn't mean that their children won't. I expect that most of them will follow in their parents footsteps, but at least a few will rebel against this notion of body-swapping.
Of course, I have no problem with taking Geshrins out of the CCG. But I say leave existing characters alone.
I don't believe that this applies to existing characters as much as new ones (correct me if I'm wrong, Fred) - however, I must point out that there are very few Geshrin characters left anyway.
Perhaps the larger issue is the status of Neplesians in the Star Army. Physically, Neplesians are worse off than Geshrin and their cybernetics, from the perspective of the genetically-minded Yamatai populace, are simply a stopgap measure. However, they are far less likely to go along with an upgrade.
Banning Neplesians from the Star Army, however, opens another can of worms that I'm not sure we want to. All I have to say, though, is that Rufus is a Nepleslian, and he's pretty cool, right?
Perhaps the larger issue is the status of Neplesians in the Star Army. Physically, Neplesians are worse off than Geshrin and their cybernetics, from the perspective of the genetically-minded Yamatai populace, are simply a stopgap measure. However, they are far less likely to go along with an upgrade.
Banning Neplesians from the Star Army, however, opens another can of worms that I'm not sure we want to. All I have to say, though, is that Rufus is a Nepleslian, and he's pretty cool, right?
Fred
Retired Staff
Yangfan-
Of course. What bothers me is that some people are completely oblivious to some elements of the culture the character they are roleplaying are in - some naively so even if they have been around for awhile. I have nothing against the Geshrins and Nepleslian races proper, but I expect the setting should react to each of those races consistantly, regardless of sheets being messed with or not.
Barring the nekovalkyrjas, the yamataian body is much better suited for operating on a nekovalkyrja warship, leave alone a yamataian power armor. Geshrins and Nepleslians have consistantly demonstrated that they make subpar combattant to the nekos and that they even feel inferior. If it is obvious to them, why would the SAoY even put up with it?
A matter of OoC player satisfaction about being able to kick butt? Defenitely, just the same way we could let the -IES computers drive the ships on their own but don't because we want to do the space exploration and not have them do it for us. I'd just like to see more IC justification and reflections around this, though.
If I play a drow on the surface world in D&D, I expect people to at least tuck their children under cover and wave chicken feet at me. There are IC consequences to character choices and they should be taken into account. Roleplaying that is part of what we are here for, even the unpleasant parts for our characters.
FM-
I'm mostly content with the geshrins as they are: I have a geshrin armor pilot and he's pretty decent. However, like I said, the geshrin characters should be in a situation where they'd have to cope with them being 'obsolete' believably.
I wouldn't bat an eye at the Nepleslians being batted out of the SAoY. Why? There's a Star Army of Nepleslia and Nepleslian characters are more common in the SAoY than the SAoN. Nepleslia could use more support and activity. Nekos can't really go in the NSE, so, I wouldn't mind seeing the Neps facing up with similar treatment. In the document for creating NH-17 nekovalkyrja appearance, there's a mention that going for something common is better than trying to be special. I don't think it is normal for Nepleslian characters to be more common in the Star Army of Yamatai than to see them serving the Star Army of their home planet.
A more compelling reason though: Nepleslians and Geshrins can no longer really support the sort of combat roles the Star Army of Yamatai has. Sure, like Rufus, they do the thinking/leadership position arguably better since they have an edge on life experience... but for the rest, nekos are just better suited.
Yamatai lent Nepleslia a fleet of second-line warships: ships that I'm sure Nepleslia would be wildly happy to see operated by Nepleslian personnel with experience in the SAoY to spur their space exploration efforts. Nepleslia needs 'em a lot more than Yamatai does, after all.
Of course. What bothers me is that some people are completely oblivious to some elements of the culture the character they are roleplaying are in - some naively so even if they have been around for awhile. I have nothing against the Geshrins and Nepleslian races proper, but I expect the setting should react to each of those races consistantly, regardless of sheets being messed with or not.
Barring the nekovalkyrjas, the yamataian body is much better suited for operating on a nekovalkyrja warship, leave alone a yamataian power armor. Geshrins and Nepleslians have consistantly demonstrated that they make subpar combattant to the nekos and that they even feel inferior. If it is obvious to them, why would the SAoY even put up with it?
A matter of OoC player satisfaction about being able to kick butt? Defenitely, just the same way we could let the -IES computers drive the ships on their own but don't because we want to do the space exploration and not have them do it for us. I'd just like to see more IC justification and reflections around this, though.
If I play a drow on the surface world in D&D, I expect people to at least tuck their children under cover and wave chicken feet at me. There are IC consequences to character choices and they should be taken into account. Roleplaying that is part of what we are here for, even the unpleasant parts for our characters.
FM-
I'm mostly content with the geshrins as they are: I have a geshrin armor pilot and he's pretty decent. However, like I said, the geshrin characters should be in a situation where they'd have to cope with them being 'obsolete' believably.
I wouldn't bat an eye at the Nepleslians being batted out of the SAoY. Why? There's a Star Army of Nepleslia and Nepleslian characters are more common in the SAoY than the SAoN. Nepleslia could use more support and activity. Nekos can't really go in the NSE, so, I wouldn't mind seeing the Neps facing up with similar treatment. In the document for creating NH-17 nekovalkyrja appearance, there's a mention that going for something common is better than trying to be special. I don't think it is normal for Nepleslian characters to be more common in the Star Army of Yamatai than to see them serving the Star Army of their home planet.
A more compelling reason though: Nepleslians and Geshrins can no longer really support the sort of combat roles the Star Army of Yamatai has. Sure, like Rufus, they do the thinking/leadership position arguably better since they have an edge on life experience... but for the rest, nekos are just better suited.
Yamatai lent Nepleslia a fleet of second-line warships: ships that I'm sure Nepleslia would be wildly happy to see operated by Nepleslian personnel with experience in the SAoY to spur their space exploration efforts. Nepleslia needs 'em a lot more than Yamatai does, after all.
DocTomoe
Well-Known Member
Kotori said:
Excuse me? I don't know where you're getting your idea that Nepleslians are inferior in armor combat.
I know from what I have seen RPing on the Sakura, I have found that Nepleslians are equal to or greater than Yamataians in combat situations. The only disadvantage Nepleslians have is the fact that they can not sky dance, but power armor takes care of that issue.
If you cite some sources of Nepleslians failing to do their job in a combat situation, I may have less of an arguement. But I know I can find a few situations where Nepleslians surpassed expectation. (Sad to say, but Taisa Rufus ftw.)
Either way, this arguement will remain until a demonstration can be made that shows that Nepleslians truely are inferior in combat... I propose hardcore PvP action.
Also, some Nepleslians do not want to serve in the Star Army of Nepleslia, the Greens suck, and the sausage fest blows.
Fred
Retired Staff
You don't have to excuse yourself Tomoe. ~_^ I'm certainly not softening my punches.
I feel that characters like Miles are allowed to perform in such situations merely for the player's sake. Just like how you seem to develop tech stuff on a whim too, because you like to do so and want to show your character is smart even though we know very well that designing that sort of thing so quickly makes no sense at all. If technoogical innovations took so little time to come up for a 'talented individual in the field' and there are many, it simply wouldn't hold up.
Hardcore PvP action, as you state, wouldn't really prove the point because to have decent PvP to be done only on a roleplaying basis with nothing else to turn to on the level of rules and statistics: something we don't do here right now in the SARP. What it ends up like is the sort of battle where one player srikes out at the other, but blunts his attacks because he's worried about offending the other. Some hardheads get into their heads that their character shouldn't lose and it ends up as either being one whom humored the other and decided to lose (often out of fairplay even though the person losing is often in a superior position to the other), or a bitching contest.
No, that doesn't hold up to me. I'd rather rely on common sense and use my head.
The nekovalkyrja are a labor caste of a sort which handles physical combat. Yamataians, Geshrins and Nepleslians are stuck with the less risky deskjobs, it seems (Miles is a scientist, right? Right?). Yamataians are similar enough to nekos to be able to hold their own if they have to get down and get dirty. Are the others able to do as well?
Naww, they shouldn't. A player might happen too, but on the same level of veracity as a human fighter in D&D can have as much hit dice as a dragon.
This really isn't about PvP or humans and dragons and all that crap though. The issue is about Geshrins serving in the Star Army keeping to using a outdated body when they could switch to another which would allow them to be more efficient. The same goes for Nepleslians, especially if they fancy themselves as having combat roles. Yamatai made it mandatory for NH-17 nekos to upgrade to the NH-29 so they'd be able to run with the best power armor systems, make smoother interfaces and have longer running times. Nepleslians are vulnerable to diseases and poisons, boast those disgusting cybernetics (that can't easily be fixed aboard a SAoY ship anyways), are taller so they don't exactly fit easily in available power armor systems and often end up in the Star Army of Yamatai while trying to avoid being home (sounds like refugees to me). Would telling them that they'd need to use yamataian bodies to be able to carry out their duties right on one of their starships (both for their own safety and proper performance, and also for reability so that the SAoY would know there is no weak links which could cause undue risk and harm to soldiers whom would have to cover up for weaker individuals) be such a far stretch, when Yamatai is offering them citizenship, a job and a purpose? I don't think so.
Besides...
The Star Army of Yamatai might not be racist, but it's not a charity either. Its personnel ought to function and its military ought to look more like something that's the strongest in the setting. Allowing subpar combattants into the mix and not having capabilities that would allow for proper operation of the ships used (anti-gravity control, mental interfaces, resistance to disease and poison) seems out of character, experience or not.
I feel that characters like Miles are allowed to perform in such situations merely for the player's sake. Just like how you seem to develop tech stuff on a whim too, because you like to do so and want to show your character is smart even though we know very well that designing that sort of thing so quickly makes no sense at all. If technoogical innovations took so little time to come up for a 'talented individual in the field' and there are many, it simply wouldn't hold up.
Hardcore PvP action, as you state, wouldn't really prove the point because to have decent PvP to be done only on a roleplaying basis with nothing else to turn to on the level of rules and statistics: something we don't do here right now in the SARP. What it ends up like is the sort of battle where one player srikes out at the other, but blunts his attacks because he's worried about offending the other. Some hardheads get into their heads that their character shouldn't lose and it ends up as either being one whom humored the other and decided to lose (often out of fairplay even though the person losing is often in a superior position to the other), or a bitching contest.
No, that doesn't hold up to me. I'd rather rely on common sense and use my head.
The nekovalkyrja are a labor caste of a sort which handles physical combat. Yamataians, Geshrins and Nepleslians are stuck with the less risky deskjobs, it seems (Miles is a scientist, right? Right?). Yamataians are similar enough to nekos to be able to hold their own if they have to get down and get dirty. Are the others able to do as well?
Naww, they shouldn't. A player might happen too, but on the same level of veracity as a human fighter in D&D can have as much hit dice as a dragon.
This really isn't about PvP or humans and dragons and all that crap though. The issue is about Geshrins serving in the Star Army keeping to using a outdated body when they could switch to another which would allow them to be more efficient. The same goes for Nepleslians, especially if they fancy themselves as having combat roles. Yamatai made it mandatory for NH-17 nekos to upgrade to the NH-29 so they'd be able to run with the best power armor systems, make smoother interfaces and have longer running times. Nepleslians are vulnerable to diseases and poisons, boast those disgusting cybernetics (that can't easily be fixed aboard a SAoY ship anyways), are taller so they don't exactly fit easily in available power armor systems and often end up in the Star Army of Yamatai while trying to avoid being home (sounds like refugees to me). Would telling them that they'd need to use yamataian bodies to be able to carry out their duties right on one of their starships (both for their own safety and proper performance, and also for reability so that the SAoY would know there is no weak links which could cause undue risk and harm to soldiers whom would have to cover up for weaker individuals) be such a far stretch, when Yamatai is offering them citizenship, a job and a purpose? I don't think so.
Besides...
The Star Army of Yamatai might not be racist, but it's not a charity either. Its personnel ought to function and its military ought to look more like something that's the strongest in the setting. Allowing subpar combattants into the mix and not having capabilities that would allow for proper operation of the ships used (anti-gravity control, mental interfaces, resistance to disease and poison) seems out of character, experience or not.
DocTomoe
Well-Known Member
In the end, this is all talk, if Yamatai is going to force Nepleslians and Geshrins to switch, then make it happen IC already. If they're not, this conversation is moot.
Least I can hope for is that Miles gets some severance pay and a ride home.
On that note, I shall leave this thread with a quote from Ghost In The Shell:
Least I can hope for is that Miles gets some severance pay and a ride home.
On that note, I shall leave this thread with a quote from Ghost In The Shell:
Cora
Inactive Member
Seeing how the one armored suit that has the absloute best in weapons, armor, shields, and just about every other system is built and ment exclusivly for Nekos and neko lites, no wonder they're better at armored combat. Not to mention all the bells and whistles they have out of their suits, encrypted telepathy, antigravity flight (how this is possible in a living creature, I don't know), ludracious regenrative capabilities and obsene strength and endurance.
Tom
Well-Known Member
May I remind you all that there's an empire next door that accepts Geshrins, Nepleslians, aliens, etc. 
The Greens may suck, but they've got some bright points too.
May I also point out what we've all known from the start but ignored: As Fred pointed out, Yamatai has the right to discriminate.
I don't see why people view Yamatai as this nice utopia. In reality, some really scary things are starting to happen there. It's a beautiful face hiding a dangerous storm.
Hell, this isn't even an example of something abnormal to Yamataian society. The players are making it that way. I think they just got a little too comfortable in how they could expect Yamatai to be just like a modern day democracy in space, with equal rights and whatnot. Take some time to read the laws of the empire, guys.
You're part of the empire and what they say goes. You don't have a choice.
The fact of the matter is that players are letting some of their emotional attachments to their character identity being baced on species, when, in reality, there's no IC reason to have them. If it's as easy as a vaccination, in a work of ST backups and such, wouldn't you think the value of a body or a life would be diminished as well?
Yamatai is built with efficiency as the number one idea. That's how it has to be for it to remain in power. The Nekos are (sorry for the irony) the top dogs in this society and the other races are meant to be in support roles. The fact that they're even given this opportunity to be in combat situations despite the fact that a procedure to become a more-efficient Neko takes such short time, is a contradiction to the empire itself. You should be thankful they even allow that.
Learn to accept it. That's what you signed up for.
The Greens may suck, but they've got some bright points too.
May I also point out what we've all known from the start but ignored: As Fred pointed out, Yamatai has the right to discriminate.
I don't see why people view Yamatai as this nice utopia. In reality, some really scary things are starting to happen there. It's a beautiful face hiding a dangerous storm.
Hell, this isn't even an example of something abnormal to Yamataian society. The players are making it that way. I think they just got a little too comfortable in how they could expect Yamatai to be just like a modern day democracy in space, with equal rights and whatnot. Take some time to read the laws of the empire, guys.
You're part of the empire and what they say goes. You don't have a choice.
The fact of the matter is that players are letting some of their emotional attachments to their character identity being baced on species, when, in reality, there's no IC reason to have them. If it's as easy as a vaccination, in a work of ST backups and such, wouldn't you think the value of a body or a life would be diminished as well?
Yamatai is built with efficiency as the number one idea. That's how it has to be for it to remain in power. The Nekos are (sorry for the irony) the top dogs in this society and the other races are meant to be in support roles. The fact that they're even given this opportunity to be in combat situations despite the fact that a procedure to become a more-efficient Neko takes such short time, is a contradiction to the empire itself. You should be thankful they even allow that.
Learn to accept it. That's what you signed up for.
I believe the question of "what now?" applies.
Nekos technically don't act like Nekos in the hands of players. Neither do Yamataians or Geshrin.
We're not these races and we're not actors. Fine, take the race out. Fair enough; it's a relatively painless move. But what Fred and Tom are saying is Yamataians and Nepleslians probably shouldn't even be fighting. They should be in support roles, as they are designed.
And Nekos should start acting like the bloody war machines they are. It's what they're designed for, yet they do all this blithering about, doing silly things such as be practical jokers, drink and, well, not spend all their off-time either training, reading, meditating or reading more.
The conversation's gone on. It's been somewhat enlightening, but is there any other action that should be taken? Because it sounds like there's supposed to be.
Nekos technically don't act like Nekos in the hands of players. Neither do Yamataians or Geshrin.
We're not these races and we're not actors. Fine, take the race out. Fair enough; it's a relatively painless move. But what Fred and Tom are saying is Yamataians and Nepleslians probably shouldn't even be fighting. They should be in support roles, as they are designed.
And Nekos should start acting like the bloody war machines they are. It's what they're designed for, yet they do all this blithering about, doing silly things such as be practical jokers, drink and, well, not spend all their off-time either training, reading, meditating or reading more.
The conversation's gone on. It's been somewhat enlightening, but is there any other action that should be taken? Because it sounds like there's supposed to be.
DocTomoe
Well-Known Member
Doshii Jun said:
Amen. That was the finest point made in this thread.
Nekos do not act like war machines, thus lowering the bar and allowing Nepleslians to be on par, simply because of a lack of effort. A fine example would be the recent combat scene in the Sakura plot. My Nepleslian character Miles faces off against two Misshu power armors and comes out completely undamaged. Meanwhile, Sana, a Yamataian, faces off against a single armor, gets careless, and gets a face full of laser. Then, in the Kennewes vacation, we have a very fine example of Nekovalkryja and Yamataians being inferior in combat in comparsion to Nepleslian ground forces (Reds FTW.) The only decent bit of work was from Hanako (Miracle armor kill.).
Side note: Hanako knew the armor she was fighting had ablative armor. She set her pistol on stun and shot it, using the scalar EM waves explosively ablate its outer chest armor for maximum damage (instead of using a normal shot).
Tom
Well-Known Member
The reason Nekos don't wipe the floor with other races is NOT because of "lack of effort," as it's impossible to have a "lack of effort" if your brain has been wired from the start to be an efficient combat machine.
I figured Nekos turned off "combat mode" while off duty, having a personality and such, and had it switched on whenever trouble was afoot. Still, I'd like to see the Neko be a bit more robotic in its emotions, or at least naive to some of the finer intricacies of life, to compensate for having such a tremendous boost in abilities.
The reason Nekos don't kick ass is because of player error. We're not soldiers, obviously, so we make mistakes.
I dare to say that the advantage of a Neko over a Nepleslian (and Yamataian) comes to such a severe degree that a player should be able to ask the GM: "So, based on my Neko's combat programming, what is the most efficient way to attack?" and get a straight answer. Nepleslians should not (unless they have some serious brain modifications).
I love the Nepleslians as much as the next guy (hell, I'm GMing their empire), but to say that a Nepleslian (or Yamataian) can stand their own against a Neko in 1 on 1 combat, armored or unarmored, is a joke.
The fact that Miles managed to escape annihilation from TWO mishu probably comes from the fact that he's so cybernetically modified that he's practically half cyborg (the emulated SPINE interface practically takes him to the next level). Most other Nepleslians can't even begin to afford that degree of modification. Miles is an exception to the norm, and the norm is that Nepleslians are as human as human can be.
The thing with the reds can probably be attributed to a multitude of factors, including: training (which Nepleslians tend to have a strong focus on guerilla tactics), equipment, morale, terrain, a bit of luck, and Wes' GM knowledge of military tactics.
I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but we need to get our heads out of the clouds too.
