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NMX Forces Update
- Thread starter Arieg
- Start date
I'm honestly shocked if you've read this thread, especially Fred's detailed posts on the SMX, and still don't get why the two are separate. Creating 'new' NMX that are just old SMX is backwards both from a narrative and a design standpoint. If you are a GM that wants to use SMX stuff, then go ahead, they still exist. But there is still no good reason to dilute the NMX when one of the primary design goals behind them was to avoid the confusing mishmash of ideas endemic to the old SMX article.
Fred
Retired Staff
Whereas I'd rather you not.
I wasn't overly pleased with the changes that happened resulting in the NMX, but at least I had assets in the SMX to fall back on if need be, and I could cherry pick things from the NMX. I'm also greatly invested in the SMX (particularily their origin story and thier progenitors).
It's as I said before: if your purpose is to mold the Mishhu into something to your liking, create your own sample, change it and see if it meets approval as something separate. Use it and if people like what it involves, so much the better; they'll probably use it.
I was somewhat sympathetic to the objective of filling in the details of something that was considered vague. I remember wanting more details on older setting elements years back and other veterans (Yangfan comes to mind) were very helpful in doing so. But if you just mean to transform the Mishhu to your liking (which is increasingly what you and Cadet seem to be on about), then my support will pretty much turn into opposition.
I depend heavily on this stuff and, for the amount of effort I've invested in this (a decade now, with much of it having me considered the Mishhu GM), I'm not having the carpet yanked from under my feet without protest. Feel free to experiment with your own thing because it is, namely, a GM priviledge do be able to do so but I won't suffer a blanket imposition quietly.
".
Arieg
DEFCON Everybody Dies
Honestly from what I've gotten there are a few to many views and toes in the way to do much of anything with it.
This is my viewpoint as well.
Arieg
DEFCON Everybody Dies
At this point the SMX are but a stub and in RP aside from the occasional brick post, do you honestly want to leave them that way?
Fred
Retired Staff
I want to headdesk so bad right now. Four pages into this thread, and all of my contributions amount to you saying this? Really?
I'm going to repeat, rephrase or something - maybe it will sink in. Yes, SMX articles are barebone. Yes, there are more roleplayed out details about the SMX (Mishhu, Umbral, variations, ship environments, etc...), and no, I'm not against fleshing that out with information that's effectively lived in now. I do believe that I've cooperated with that so far in giving you everything you asked for that I could muster. I've also given opinions - some are favorable to your suposition, some are not. But, in effect, I'm just trying to maintain quality assurance. I want to maintain some continuity I have going on and maintain it's integrity without wiki articles suddenly stabbing me in the back.
If you want a more naked view of how I feel about this:
There's also the facet of that felt that I could return and fiddle with the SMX - whom practically no one is still using (except me) - to spruce them up. As in, newer artwork affirming them as how they looked before; I did sketch ship refits and newer battlepods that I was planning out thier interiors but it's nothing I was ready to bring up. I didn't feel pressed for time. Having people that revisit them with the intent of overhauling them feels a bit brusque (I did expect Wes to go forward with the NMX, but not backwards)... but I've been trying to take that in stride. It's, after all, not Wes' custom to stiffle creativity. Wes has shown that as long as a certain degree of integrity and quality level can be maintained, he's fine with indulging others because it helps people feel involved in the setting.
The sudden attention toward the SMX to grab what it has that's still unique spread it around, well, it does frustrate me a bit. "You already have the NMX for that, have away at them! They're already kind of tugged all over the place by different GMs" - is kind of what I wish you would do. But your initial stance was fleshing out vagueness, which is legitimate. As long as it remains at that, I've no room to argue - nor should I. Despite investment, I have to check in my entitlement - this isn't just my sandbox.
The SMX are the way they are because when Wes did the NMX, I wanted to pull them away and preserve that sample of how I felt the best expression of being Mishhu was like (in more particular, Melisson's fleet - as I'd assume most of the rest of the Mishhu got turned into Neo Mishhu). That goal of mine hasn't changed either. Nor to I see that as overly unjust on my part, aren't I suggesting that if you want to get even more creative, you ought to do the same thing.
I hope this at least makes it clear. But more to the point, this should minimally affect what your stated goals were in your opening post. NH-25 neko-mishhu hybrids is mostly what ends up being touched on. Unless you really want to be passive-aggressive about it and just go for the tangent if you truly feel it's 'unworkable'. I'm not going to argue over what you should want or not want past an airing of my opinion. all I want are elements of the SMX and the TNE preserved so they maintain both continuity and credibility when Doshii and I make use of them - that's all.
I'm going to repeat, rephrase or something - maybe it will sink in. Yes, SMX articles are barebone. Yes, there are more roleplayed out details about the SMX (Mishhu, Umbral, variations, ship environments, etc...), and no, I'm not against fleshing that out with information that's effectively lived in now. I do believe that I've cooperated with that so far in giving you everything you asked for that I could muster. I've also given opinions - some are favorable to your suposition, some are not. But, in effect, I'm just trying to maintain quality assurance. I want to maintain some continuity I have going on and maintain it's integrity without wiki articles suddenly stabbing me in the back.
If you want a more naked view of how I feel about this:
There's also the facet of that felt that I could return and fiddle with the SMX - whom practically no one is still using (except me) - to spruce them up. As in, newer artwork affirming them as how they looked before; I did sketch ship refits and newer battlepods that I was planning out thier interiors but it's nothing I was ready to bring up. I didn't feel pressed for time. Having people that revisit them with the intent of overhauling them feels a bit brusque (I did expect Wes to go forward with the NMX, but not backwards)... but I've been trying to take that in stride. It's, after all, not Wes' custom to stiffle creativity. Wes has shown that as long as a certain degree of integrity and quality level can be maintained, he's fine with indulging others because it helps people feel involved in the setting.
The sudden attention toward the SMX to grab what it has that's still unique spread it around, well, it does frustrate me a bit. "You already have the NMX for that, have away at them! They're already kind of tugged all over the place by different GMs" - is kind of what I wish you would do. But your initial stance was fleshing out vagueness, which is legitimate. As long as it remains at that, I've no room to argue - nor should I. Despite investment, I have to check in my entitlement - this isn't just my sandbox.
The SMX are the way they are because when Wes did the NMX, I wanted to pull them away and preserve that sample of how I felt the best expression of being Mishhu was like (in more particular, Melisson's fleet - as I'd assume most of the rest of the Mishhu got turned into Neo Mishhu). That goal of mine hasn't changed either. Nor to I see that as overly unjust on my part, aren't I suggesting that if you want to get even more creative, you ought to do the same thing.
I hope this at least makes it clear. But more to the point, this should minimally affect what your stated goals were in your opening post. NH-25 neko-mishhu hybrids is mostly what ends up being touched on. Unless you really want to be passive-aggressive about it and just go for the tangent if you truly feel it's 'unworkable'. I'm not going to argue over what you should want or not want past an airing of my opinion. all I want are elements of the SMX and the TNE preserved so they maintain both continuity and credibility when Doshii and I make use of them - that's all.
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Because it was suggested that I may have been unclear:
Make all the NMX gear and equipment you like. Go hog wild. Better defined ships, arms, powered armor, whatever is awesome for the NMX especially in the cases where the SMX stuff is ill fitted for the NMX types or not sufficiently documented.
Make all the NMX gear and equipment you like. Go hog wild. Better defined ships, arms, powered armor, whatever is awesome for the NMX especially in the cases where the SMX stuff is ill fitted for the NMX types or not sufficiently documented.
Arieg
DEFCON Everybody Dies
What if I created a third Mishhuvurthyar sub faction intended to service these aims while still providing the inventory and modifications to both the SMX and NMX in the way of a design bureau while also acting as a compact scale combat faction in the name of testing these systems on the Mishhuvurthyar's enemies?
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure that's the best course to take, but it's not something to be ruled out yet Arieg.
Still, focusing on our discussion itself - maybe it's because it's getting late - I'm actually starting to get annoyed myself.
It's like it's been ignored, but on the other hand, it could have just been overlooked considering the amount of text around. I've said this in my last post, and I'll say this again. We're not going to change the Mishhu - we're here to talk about things that Could be done. And everyone should know that Could does not mean Should or Will. In trying to figure this out, there will be a lot of different ideas flying around, and not all of them will be to taste. Some ideas may be completely distasteful. But that's part of the process; we're trying to figure out an answer to a problem, not shove something down people's throats.
Fred, you felt that the NH-25 were touched on too much in the discussion, but they're only some ideas - and just that. Those Ideas are not something I'd force onto the setting or others, even if I did like them on a personal level. The 25's are only one facet of this discussion overall, and I just like to focus on a few things at a time to try and be clear. That's it. I don't intend to completely ruin things for you, because I'm under the impression that's exactly what you think I'm setting out to do. Do you remember when we were working on the Mindy 2's update?
It's the same deal, except unlike the Mindy 2, there's less of them to go off of, and even less of them on the wiki. You'd be damn right to expect a whole shit-ton of ideas being tossed around, because some are to figure out what they were, some to figure out what they could be. To get something right and make a good article, it'll take more than hard facts, but also what the maker's intent for it to be when it was made. Right now - and this is just with the NH-25 and not even the Mishhu as a whole - the biggest clue I got with them and what your point of view/intent with them is this;
And that's just a peek. A rough idea. One that points me in a general direction but still leaves me guessing. If any of you guys got objections to the ideas around here, you'll have to be more upfront with the thoughts and reasoning behind them. And not just with IC canon and stuff, but also with viewpoints and opinions as players or GMs.
Following that vein though, this is what I'm trying to chase after;
The second part, is to make sure the Opposing-Force is used properly. Things get harder for everyone involved if there's a unit, but nobody knows how to use it in RP right. This also ties in to the third reason though. Luca once had the Phoenix crew planetside trying to help people evacuate, and were shooting down Rippers left and right like they were common mooks. Making sure articles reflect what they are meant to be in RP would have helped to prevent this misuse, which resulted in 'Monkey-Models' of the Ripper later being made to try and explain what happened in RP. But more importantly, is is make sure there aren't gaps in the lineup either. At the time, without good canon fodder to pick from on the Mishhu's lineup, Luca felt he had to use the Ripper in that manner. It was new, it was shiny, and it didn't come with the instruction manual! And on top of that, the other stuff to choose from wasn't very interesting, which leads back to the first part.
TL;DR
I'd like to make the Mishhu be decent badguys. What would be the best way to do this without mucking up what's already there?
Still, focusing on our discussion itself - maybe it's because it's getting late - I'm actually starting to get annoyed myself.
It's like it's been ignored, but on the other hand, it could have just been overlooked considering the amount of text around. I've said this in my last post, and I'll say this again. We're not going to change the Mishhu - we're here to talk about things that Could be done. And everyone should know that Could does not mean Should or Will. In trying to figure this out, there will be a lot of different ideas flying around, and not all of them will be to taste. Some ideas may be completely distasteful. But that's part of the process; we're trying to figure out an answer to a problem, not shove something down people's throats.
Fred, you felt that the NH-25 were touched on too much in the discussion, but they're only some ideas - and just that. Those Ideas are not something I'd force onto the setting or others, even if I did like them on a personal level. The 25's are only one facet of this discussion overall, and I just like to focus on a few things at a time to try and be clear. That's it. I don't intend to completely ruin things for you, because I'm under the impression that's exactly what you think I'm setting out to do. Do you remember when we were working on the Mindy 2's update?
It's the same deal, except unlike the Mindy 2, there's less of them to go off of, and even less of them on the wiki. You'd be damn right to expect a whole shit-ton of ideas being tossed around, because some are to figure out what they were, some to figure out what they could be. To get something right and make a good article, it'll take more than hard facts, but also what the maker's intent for it to be when it was made. Right now - and this is just with the NH-25 and not even the Mishhu as a whole - the biggest clue I got with them and what your point of view/intent with them is this;
And that's just a peek. A rough idea. One that points me in a general direction but still leaves me guessing. If any of you guys got objections to the ideas around here, you'll have to be more upfront with the thoughts and reasoning behind them. And not just with IC canon and stuff, but also with viewpoints and opinions as players or GMs.
Following that vein though, this is what I'm trying to chase after;
- Have the Mishhu be an enemy that's enjoyable to fight against and interesting to see in RP as a player
- Have the Mishhu be easy to pick up and use for GMs
- Make sure the Mishhu have a good, diverse line-up of units for the players to fight or interact with
The second part, is to make sure the Opposing-Force is used properly. Things get harder for everyone involved if there's a unit, but nobody knows how to use it in RP right. This also ties in to the third reason though. Luca once had the Phoenix crew planetside trying to help people evacuate, and were shooting down Rippers left and right like they were common mooks. Making sure articles reflect what they are meant to be in RP would have helped to prevent this misuse, which resulted in 'Monkey-Models' of the Ripper later being made to try and explain what happened in RP. But more importantly, is is make sure there aren't gaps in the lineup either. At the time, without good canon fodder to pick from on the Mishhu's lineup, Luca felt he had to use the Ripper in that manner. It was new, it was shiny, and it didn't come with the instruction manual! And on top of that, the other stuff to choose from wasn't very interesting, which leads back to the first part.
TL;DR
I'd like to make the Mishhu be decent badguys. What would be the best way to do this without mucking up what's already there?
I was thinking that all we have are statements of intent without anything concrete to approve or disapprove of, so why not put up a draft of the wiki entries you want to add and we can brainstorm it? We can approve or disapprove of individual items on their own merits and not get bogged down at the statement of intent. This way we can get a better look at what you want to change.
And isn't the SMX and NMX different? If they are, then we need to take care not to mash the two up by mistake. For example, if you asked a Chinese if he was from Japan, I'm sure you'll get a frosty reception.
And isn't the SMX and NMX different? If they are, then we need to take care not to mash the two up by mistake. For example, if you asked a Chinese if he was from Japan, I'm sure you'll get a frosty reception.
They (the NMX) already are decent bad guys. It's not what they are -- it's how you use them.
The SMX were great not because of what they were, but because of how Fred used them. He crafted great characters and made them represent just how fearsome the faction's denizens could be. You even state as much.
The NMX can be the same: Reiaz was distant but scary; Melisson obviously was the terror of the site.
You don't need to change, or even update, a whole raft of stuff just to reach your goals. You need one good antagonist, one solid nemesis.
"But I want them to be easy for GMs to pick up -- "
They already are. As long as a GM will put forward an interesting antagonist, the GM has all they need. The NMX already have a mass of units, ships and so on to draw from.
tl;dr: This is much easier than four pages makes it out to be. Create a worthwhile villain. The rest will follow.
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CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
A good GM can always trump having underwhelming tools at their disposal, but that doesn't actually make the tools at hand good. I can deal with it myself even, but when looking at things in a more broad sense, it is only detrimental. Not everyone else is as experienced in doing so.
Look at the current lineup the NMX has from both a 'gameplay' and a narrative one. Going from least to greatest threat, it's Light Infantry, Reaper, Ripper, and then the various vehicles, including the Ravager. At this point in time, after a lot of trial and error, it's much more balanced than it initially was, but it still has issues. Looking at the Reaper for an example, there's already the issues with its weapons that I've pointed out; it can be remedied by reaching into the SAoY's inventory, but that's looked down on for the same reasons that the NMX using the Daisy was. Narratively however, it has the same problem as NMX Light Infantry in general - they're too human. Already, that takes away from a faction that is supposed to be monstrous, but in addition, they can end up two-dimensional/hammy when a GM attempts to depict their humanity or tries to make what is not a monster into a monster.
Again, this isn't a problem for a GM who is experienced and skilled, but it is for others, especially new GMs.
Moving on, there's the Ripper. That one has a history here. From what I understand, it ended up being used as cannon fodder early on when it was meant to be an elite unit. Like mentioned earlier, it was the result of the NMX inventory basically having gaps in its coverage. When it was pointed out as being meant to be a tough opponent, two things happened. It was either a "Monkey Model" or perfectly built, but absolutely stupid. Again, this was done to compensate for the fact there wasn't much else to work with at the time. The end result though, is that Rippers are wildly inconsistent in the setting and even have a stigma of being either cheaply and quickly made knockoffs of the real deal, or that the real deal is not bright in the slightest.
I could go on, but the key issue here is that the NMX is fundamentally flawed as an enemy, and an enemy is one of the most useful tools GMs can have at their disposal. There are numerous different ways to fix this, but not all of them are agreeable, so I ask, how can the Mishhu be made into proper enemies again? Because right now, they're not very good at all - this thread alone contains loads of info considered canon about them, but it's not even in the wiki. That's not acceptable.
Look at the current lineup the NMX has from both a 'gameplay' and a narrative one. Going from least to greatest threat, it's Light Infantry, Reaper, Ripper, and then the various vehicles, including the Ravager. At this point in time, after a lot of trial and error, it's much more balanced than it initially was, but it still has issues. Looking at the Reaper for an example, there's already the issues with its weapons that I've pointed out; it can be remedied by reaching into the SAoY's inventory, but that's looked down on for the same reasons that the NMX using the Daisy was. Narratively however, it has the same problem as NMX Light Infantry in general - they're too human. Already, that takes away from a faction that is supposed to be monstrous, but in addition, they can end up two-dimensional/hammy when a GM attempts to depict their humanity or tries to make what is not a monster into a monster.
Again, this isn't a problem for a GM who is experienced and skilled, but it is for others, especially new GMs.
Moving on, there's the Ripper. That one has a history here. From what I understand, it ended up being used as cannon fodder early on when it was meant to be an elite unit. Like mentioned earlier, it was the result of the NMX inventory basically having gaps in its coverage. When it was pointed out as being meant to be a tough opponent, two things happened. It was either a "Monkey Model" or perfectly built, but absolutely stupid. Again, this was done to compensate for the fact there wasn't much else to work with at the time. The end result though, is that Rippers are wildly inconsistent in the setting and even have a stigma of being either cheaply and quickly made knockoffs of the real deal, or that the real deal is not bright in the slightest.
I could go on, but the key issue here is that the NMX is fundamentally flawed as an enemy, and an enemy is one of the most useful tools GMs can have at their disposal. There are numerous different ways to fix this, but not all of them are agreeable, so I ask, how can the Mishhu be made into proper enemies again? Because right now, they're not very good at all - this thread alone contains loads of info considered canon about them, but it's not even in the wiki. That's not acceptable.
After grilling Cadette over voice we have come to an agreement on what needs to be done with the NMX on the wiki to fulfill his needs concerning the NMX in matters not related to their gear and equipment. Though, that's part and parcel of this package too. To facilitate this we will author a wiki page that will serve as a guide for GMs on the NMX more than just a list of stats and a few paragraphs on their physiology. What the composition of an NMX troop should look like, how many Mishhu and of what types should be a reasonable threat to a player? Instead of just a list of equipment, how might a singular Mishhu be geared? What might the command structure of a Mishhu ship look like? These are the sort of things we hope to answer and provide for GMs in the interest of solidifying the portrayal of SARP's iconic non-player villains.
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
The Daisy typically ships out with the LASR, a forearm mounted zesuaium-composite shield and either offensive or defensive mini-missile launchers at the calves by default, in addition to its integrated weapons in the wrists. Not only that, but the most common upgrade is the 50mm shoulder cannon. A Reaper, in comparison, will get offensive or defensive mini-missiles, the Impaler (which it's better off discarding) and an inferior 50mm cannon. It'll put out less damage, assuming it' firing everything at once, but not only that, but it has no forearm shield to bolster its defenses. To add to the challenges that it faces, if the Reaper tries to use cover, it'll have to expose itself much more to use both forearm weapons, and be incapable of 'slicing the corner' while maintaining most of its punch.
A Daisy can slice a corner and still use its shoulder mounted cannon and rifle, as well as a mini-missile launcher, while a Reaper can't use both wrist weapons and its own cannon without exposing itself. And this is on top of not having the forearm shield.
Overall though, my goals are basically what Revolver said - a general guide would be most helpful, accompanied by more proper equipment. To Fred, Hybrids were brought up since they're well known to have a good track record despite lacking an article. Arieg would like to have them in combat roles, but personally? I'd like them to act as advisors to the NMX at the most and only intervene on a personal basis, rather than a general one.
A Daisy can slice a corner and still use its shoulder mounted cannon and rifle, as well as a mini-missile launcher, while a Reaper can't use both wrist weapons and its own cannon without exposing itself. And this is on top of not having the forearm shield.
Overall though, my goals are basically what Revolver said - a general guide would be most helpful, accompanied by more proper equipment. To Fred, Hybrids were brought up since they're well known to have a good track record despite lacking an article. Arieg would like to have them in combat roles, but personally? I'd like them to act as advisors to the NMX at the most and only intervene on a personal basis, rather than a general one.
I think you're looking at a "fire everything wildly" scenario, which very rarely happens. Usually people will just use one weapon type at a time. Sure, the Daisy has more weapons fitted and the shield, but that was the flexibility that I mentioned. A Daisy fires the LASR, the Reaper fires the shoulder cannon, it equals out. The problem I think is that you play "Top Trumps" where you look at "Total added damage" as a factor instead of the normal usage of firing one weapon system at a time. In this mindset, you would probably get the 50mm for the Daisy as your personal choice because it has the "highest damage". Personally I think the flamethrower will be more useful, especially vs unarmoured infantry that NMX will often field.
You look too much on "Total damage" as a factor, it actually influences your designs, they tend to creep towards overkill.
The Reaper is only slightly weaker than a Daisy, it's not so underpowered that they are not near equivalent units. I would like to see more close combat options for the Reaper though and less for the Daisy to show their different design approaches.
You look too much on "Total damage" as a factor, it actually influences your designs, they tend to creep towards overkill.
The Reaper is only slightly weaker than a Daisy, it's not so underpowered that they are not near equivalent units. I would like to see more close combat options for the Reaper though and less for the Daisy to show their different design approaches.
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
Not in the slightest - when I take the time to design something, I do my best to carefully consider the various circumstances that the weapon can be used in. If you look to my last post, I had done just that; not only are all the offensive abilities taken into account, but also how they would be typically used, such as when firing from cover. Comparing the previously mentioned Daisy and Reaper, the Daisy still wins. It can slice the pie/corner, enabling it to both protect itself as well as bring its rifle and 50mm to bear. Meanwhile, the Reaper has its wrist-gun and weaker 50mm at best, putting it at a disadvantage should it do the same. In order to even achieve parity, it has to expose itself, but even then, it is still at a disadvantage. Even if both limited themselves to firing just one weapon, again, the Reaper is ill-equipped.
So far, there just isn't any good reason not to give the Reaper an improved pool of equipment that GMs can choose from.
Overall though, even that is just one small part of an overall larger picture; that the NMX need a lot of work. Most importantly, their portrayal in RP has been widely inconsistent, and with depictions that make it very difficult for them to be taken seriously when viewed by people from an OOC perspective. The thing they need most is exactly what Revolver has said - a general guide that gives players and GMs a solid idea of what is the norm for their forces. New equipment is needed, but that is secondary to repairing their image and the gameplay players receive against them.
So far, there just isn't any good reason not to give the Reaper an improved pool of equipment that GMs can choose from.
Overall though, even that is just one small part of an overall larger picture; that the NMX need a lot of work. Most importantly, their portrayal in RP has been widely inconsistent, and with depictions that make it very difficult for them to be taken seriously when viewed by people from an OOC perspective. The thing they need most is exactly what Revolver has said - a general guide that gives players and GMs a solid idea of what is the norm for their forces. New equipment is needed, but that is secondary to repairing their image and the gameplay players receive against them.
