Defense of Personal Freedoms

[raz]

Why is this suddenly an issue, anyway? Corporations have never had a problem operating in the way they want to operate, and have always existed as setting elements intended to flesh out whatever faction(s) they are a part of. Most corporation creators are Game Masters, why strive to become "pseudo FMs," too?

Is it so people can have more banners?

 

[Charmaylarg Dufrain]

Whats the word ive been looking for? subsidiaries! How would subsidiaries be affected by this? Say if Company X is based and registered in Nepleslia but has subsidiaries in say, Yamatai. The subsidiaries also have to pay taxes to Yamatai but also belong to a nepleslian based company? I dont really see people caring about taxes or stuff like that. Just curiosities on random thoughts i have is all~

 

[club24]

To answer your questiong from my position raz, i dont want to be an fm even if its not quite the real deal, i just want to be able to continue with my current plans for my small business which involves working with others outside uso, already they rely on iis for a lot of stuff and yeah, ic if they get cut off then Horizon may even just die for a while

 

[Wes]

Each nation would have their own tax setup but the taxes are typically collected by the nation in which the business is physically conducted.

So if Origin HQ works in Yamatai but has Nepleslian subsidiaries it pays the YSE taxes and its subsidiary pays Nepleslian taxes since it's there. Simple enough!

Yamatai has weird taxes, as it sometimes collects in stuff instead of money from companies. So if you're a business that makes blankets, and the Star Army needs blankets, instead of asking for tax money it's going to ask for X number of blankets (up to 10% of how many blankets you're making).

Going with the Origin Example, Yamatai would want a starship tax to get freighters for the SAoY to use in the Kuvvy War.

 

[Alex Hart]

How would I handle Osman Heavy Industries, which has been pushed out of the USO (in universe) by the current economic climate there and now currently has not home country.

 

[Legix]

I'd like to say that I have the fullest intent to sponsor anyone who makes chewing gum within Nepleslia.

Unless you want to sell it to Mishhu, then GTFO.

I wanted to speak on that before I absconded from this overreaction-y and meme-level junk.

 

[FrostJaeger]

Wouldn’t the increase in sales to the Exodus Fleet (as @Alex Hart mentioned here) help sustain GH, @club24 - and besides, what’s stopping GH (apart from the expeditionary plot you just started, but in my opinion the company’s on-world presence technically isn’t needed for the expedition) from relocating to a different faction?

 

[Wes]

How would I handle Osman Heavy Industries, which has been pushed out of the USO (in universe) by the current economic climate there and now currently has not home country.

I think you should pick a cool faction and apply for a business license there and let that be its new home.

 

[raz]

Having your corporation licensed in another faction other than its home faction seems about as complicated as submission tagging the FMs for the faction you want to sell in. This has been the standard for at least the entire time I've been on Star Army Dot Com. Which is to say, if you have an approved corporation then you have approved production capability, and thus the approval of pertinent FMs means BAM you've got a subsidiary or license to sell in that faction. You could even go that extra mile and make a news post about how CoolCorp is now licensed to sell NeatoGun in Faction X.

It's very complex stuff, right?

 

[Ethereal]

To be honest, I've been operating under the "go get a trade deal and don't presume you can trade anywhere" licensing model since I made IIS. It's actually been a pretty great source of RP, having me RP with and message several FMs for the ability to trade officially in their territory.

For Yamatai we make ship parts in exchange for protection inside Yamatai, like anyone else. For Nepleslia as condition of a trade deal I had to move the IIS Avalon, the IIS home station, around Nepleslia after being de-licensed for whatever reason to re-enter the trade. For Elysia, we exchanged shipyards for business (before I removed all of mine). For Section 6 and USO we RP'd them working to help S6 so they could trade, then IC issues made that impossible. For the 'Spacers we organised a Junker employment and welfare contract for trade. When the factions were around that have left, I exchanged ship plans and weapon shipments for economic participation. I have groundwork planned with the Nesshies also.

I don't think I've ever assumed that people in a faction outside Yamatai - the faction IIS was approved in - were able to buy my stuff unless I asked that faction to sell there explicitly, much like the licensing model. The idea of the home faction perturbs me mildly, as I mentioned about nationalisation, but I'm sure that system will be elaborated on.

Also, GH will still be able to trade by proxy through IIS and get royalty trickle back as far as I'm concerned @club24. You made a deal with me for off-188 sales and that's what you're getting regardless the changes.

 

[Primitive Polygon]

As a the leader of a faction that already didn't attend the International Relations Conference since Yam always snubs the 'spacers anyways; Got a complicated relationship with this idea.

I actually DO think some non-national cooperations really push the realms of believably, by having too many militaristic elements, and too little explaining how they continue to support it supply-wise on a day to day basis. Never mind things like morale or replacing casualties. I can see how Wes has a problem with things like that, since it does leave open a back door for quasi-FMs, like he said.

From the perspective of somebody who wants to cultivate an actual culture (and thus player experiences), can't act like I would be a goody two shoes and just give asylum to anybody who wants it, either.

But forcing it into a specific power grab law like this, is honestly just asking for player drama and possible people leaving.

If making deals with actual factions is a mandatory requirement for a cooperation, it seems like there should be as little red tape around the laws as possible. That means letting people work with whoever whenever, unless it is specifically agreed against with your allies. If a cooperation does something wrong or tries to go back on their word, that faction can always kick them out later. If they annoy absolutely everyone, only then is the game up.

Rewarding someone for cooperating is always better than trying to force them to.

This isn't the real world, and we are all here for entertainment in the end.

 

[Syaoran]

I think people are drastically overestimating how much of an effect this will have on the OOC side. Honestly speaking, from what I'm hearing, almost nothing will actually change for players. Literally all you'll have to do is ask an FM if you're square there and can sell there. Companies that couldn't sell in Yamatai, already couldn't sell there in the first place. And even if they can't that doesn't mean that individual players can't get their hands on that company's stuff. It just means the nation themselves wont be buying it. From my understanding Wes is not banning anyone's products from circulation, this just legitimizes what's already been in effect, that Nations(FMs) can say "I don't want them to sell their stuff in my nation" (Technically this has been a thing since Akemi's first business attempt, so please don't act like this is new.)

So really the only thing changing is that every company must have some nation's laws it answers to. Doesn't mean the nations control it, just means that if say the IRC passes a law that no company can make biological weapons, then if the nation your company works under, you have to comply. You can have multiple licenses, so it's not like you can only sell in the nation that you're listed under. And you can even make subsidiaries that could sell to even that nation's enemies. As long as you're not expressly forbidden from doing it.

 

[Primitive Polygon]

If it is actually implemented like that, and isn't used to strongarm loyalties, then yeah, I wouldn't have a problem personally. It's only the potential to force people to deal with one faction that seems irksome.

 

[Rizzo]

The implications of this proposal stand to reach farther than just what's being advertised. The potential for abuse is great. This could basically make indie characters illegal in factions and thus having plots that move about the map are not possible for independent characters. It also seems very un-Nepleslian to reject a corporation that obeys laws, pays taxes, but just operates out of a backwater planet.

 

[Soban]

There is also the problem of @every @faction @leader @so @I @Don't @Have @to @worry @if @I've @forgotten @someone. seems a lot of rework for the FMs to me. Like I mentioned earlier, I think it makes more sense to have a simi-FM for independents.

The law as proposed, I think is not a good one and should be scrapped or heavily modified ICly.

 

[FrostJaeger]

This is starting to get just a tad overblown, in my opinion.

This proposed law is not an OOC power grab or an attempt at player drama - and if someone in charge of a corporation leaves because they actually have to work with others, then that’s on them, not Wes, the law, or the community as a whole, because we don’t need any more Ariegs; similarly, this law is not about “forcing” anything or making independent characters illegal.

 

[Jack Pine]

Now I do have a new question, what about groups that sell product, but aren't a corp.

Section 6 is not a company, Its not focused on profits, but it does sell most of its inventions. Ships, guns, PA, cars, and civilian items. Will this even effect them?

Secondly is there even a way to convince others the USO is a nation that they will even accept? Most seem content just sticking with the belief that they're trash scum when groups like S6 have been working to change that. They've improved tech, education standards, provided local made product, additional security, development, and have future plans to improve local life.

 

[Ethereal]

This probably isn't the place to talk about the USO given this is centered around something different. I would guess part of the pushback against recognition is that they haven't done much to win cordial relations with other nations on the international stage due to their isolationist stance. That and local improvements aren't going to be reported to or mean anything to foreign heads of state, much like Nepleslia wouldn't bother about Yamatai opening a new welfare scheme. That's my two cents, I don't actually sit either side of the matter since I've had both good and bad experiences on 188.

As for whether a group is a company or not, or if it refuses to classify itself, this is the official definition of a company: "A company a legal entity made up of an association of people for carrying on a commercial or industrial enterprise. "

However, this is the definition of corporation, which is more broad. "A corporation is a company or group of people or an organisation authorized to act as a single entity (legally a person) and recognized as such in law."

We might come up with a different definition to fit SARP but that's the agreed upon definition IRL, if you're not a government body.

 

[Syaoran]

@Rizzo how does this at all make indie characters 'illegal' this has absolutely nothing to do with characters. All it says is that all corporations must have a 'home nation' or the IRC wont deal with them. You are taking massive leaps in logic in order to try and find fault with this somewhere. Also nothing says a cooperation can't operate out of a back water planet. All this says is that they must pick a nation to be their registered under. Again, this is a wild logic jump that is just plain wrong.

Also @Soban the only person you need approval form when submitting is the 'Home Nation' FM. You don't need approval form every nation you sell in from my understanding. Because those other nations only have the authority to say you can't sell that product in their borders or say you can't trade in their borders anymore, they can't punish your company for making a product they don't like if your company is based in another nation.

Edit: I know this is your thread @Rizzo but at this point what you're doing is borderline libel. You literally posted what the proposition is, and it says nothing about 'characters' every line starts with 'Business'.

 

[Rizzo]

@Syaoran I understand that you do not follow my logic but I ask that you do not try to minimize it because you are not able to understand. This has everything to do with characters because characters need employment to support themselves, generally acquiring money and resources through a corporation. By registering under a home nation there is indirect control by that government limiting who they can do business with. As this treaty stands USO corporations cannot go International. What Wes wants to do will not only destroy my own Corporation, which doesn't matter because I already have a workaround, but it prevents players, emphasis on the real life writers participating, from achieving a fuller potential with their corporation simply because of where they are located, in this case being the USO.

For years women's rights activists have been fighting against a percieved 'glass ceiling' for women in the workplace.
Similarly, this treaty intends to unite all of the factions in the construction of a glass ceiling for corporations in the USO and also corporations that value true neutrality. If it is wrong to do this to working women, why should we do this to hobbyists?