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Defense of Personal Freedoms

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First before I get into any discussion, do not bring women's rights into this. That is not only rude to women's rights to compare this to it. But it's also a bad move as a community member to try and drum up pity points from a straight up wrong comparison.

Now to discuss the stuff you said, I follow your logic @Rizzo it's just simply wrong <.< The cooperations have to be registerd, but that does not automatically make the workers part of the faction the cooperation is under. If some Abwehrans were working at teh Origin branch there, that does not make them Yamatai Faction. Also this does not stop independent RP. For instance, teh Wayward plot, even though they are doing a job for the ASE, they are still independent, they are just working a temporary contract.

Now your next point, this does not actually limit companies. Because if they don't like who they're registered under they can change. However I'm pretty sure it'll be rare for an FM to tell a company "You can't do business with this faction." For one that's just not good manners in RP, but also it's pretty freakin' hard to enforce, and not worth it ICly unless the two nations are straight out at war.

Look at all the corporation that were in the setting to begin with, Origin is the only one that was a 'faction' in any sense. The rest were all based in some nation or another, and they sold to who they felt like. Your potential isn't limited.

The -only- reason USO suffers is because their poor diplomatic relations with other nations. For one, that's realistic that the companies from there would suffer, but two this in no way stops companies from going international. They could easily if they wanted register in a separate nation since USO currently isn't recognized as a nation, and all these 'problems' you proposed would be fixed in an instant.

TL;DR:
  • Being employed by a faciton based company does not make you part of that faction
  • The acutal limitations on the company are very sparse, and things like the player rights will keep people able to do what they want without being too restricted
  • Worst come to Worst USO companies can register as part of other nations until USO is recognized. (As of right now comapnies are not banned from doing Business with the USO group, but rather USO companies are currently not allowed to set up shop in Yamatai and other IRC nations.)
  • Edit: Just to clarify, 'location' is almost irrelevant, it has been said you can open up branch facilities and such. So just because you are 'inside' USO does not automatically permanently register you as an USO company.
 
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Yeah corners are useless in a group like this @Charmaylarg Dufrain. When people like any post that claims that a common principal pushed by countless civil rights groups throughout history is a pity point I'm about out of ideas. I will argue this no further. If this treaty is signed in this poor condition, fine. I will prove it's flaws and let people talk about it later.
 
Women's right's is a -real- problem. What you are arguing over is firstly, a -game-, and secondly your points are simply wrong. It's disrespectful to use something as serious as women's rights to try to substantiate your baseless whining. Everything you mentioned as a 'problem' has a clear solution or counter point mentioned. You just don't want to accept it because quite simply, this puts USO as a faction at a disadvantage. Which yes, it does, however, that's kinda what happens when instead of playing ball with the other big players you sit out on the sidelines or do things to anger them. You end up in a unfavorable situation. That's how things are, that's why nations have diplomacy policies in the first place, so things don't get changed in ways unfavorable for them when they aren't paying attention.

However, despite USO being at a disadvantage, that is teh USO faction, not businesses that started in USO, because they can easily register in other places. And USO's disadvantage can be solved by them starting to get good diplomacy.
 
Women's right's is a -real- problem. What you are arguing over is firstly, a -game-, and secondly your points are simply wrong. It's disrespectful to use something as serious as women's rights to try to substantiate your baseless whining.
Now that I will respond to.
Are you claiming that because this is a fictional setting that we as humans should ignore the morals of civil rights causes?
 
But the morality of a principle should affect people and their actions.
EDIT: I actually follow this subject in RL.
 
@Rizzo firstly there is no 'moral issue' with what is being done. This is literally how things are in the real world. Companies are almost always in some way 'registered' to a nation. And in real life, companies can be embargoed if nations don't trust them because they have a shady background, they can also be banned from doing business. That's nor a moral dilemma that's just common sense.

If there were a moral dilemma then we should address it. But there is none in this situation. There isn't even a 'problem'. There is just you lying about what this proposal will effect. You make not only yourself look bad, but you reflect badly on USO when you try to defend them by making claims that are entirely baseless and just one step away from pure lies. Step away from the podium and quit while your ahead.

Also stop trying to bend people's post to make them out to be bad guys, all it does it make it look like you have a tentative grasp on the English language.

Now as soon as you stop trying to twist my post and portray me as some morally bankrupt individual as well as get the last word end, we can be done with this.
 
Potentially helpful reminder: This is a roleplaying website, where everything is made up and we come here for fun.

We all forget sometimes. No shame in it.
 
@Syaoran, by calling me a liar I'm sure you have proof that in the future there is no possibility of this being abused, misapplied, or used to advance any secondary agenda. Perhaps you could share this with me so that I may be enlightened?

EDIT: additionally I am not specifically a USO player, though I've hosted USO threads. I am a primarily Yamataian player that has USO assets. I understand that some have been confused by this so please look to what I have said about having assisted the YSE twice in a large way for the war and the dedicated SAINT character as proof of this.
 
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As the proposal is presented now, it simply requires a business to register with a company. Now these next few things are -facts-
  • Being employed by a corporation does not make you part of the faction that company belongs to. (Most companies were part of factions in the first place, and no one was forced to join the faction, unless that was the company's personal hiring policy.)
  • As written the home faction is -chosen- by the corporation, not decided by someone else
  • Wes has stated that companies can open up subsidiaries and obtain multiple licensees to do business in factions other than the one they registered as their home faction.
  • Player right six allows you to move your character to another plot if you feel uncomfortable there, that would include jumping factions. And player rights 1 and 2 give you sole control over your characters barring necessity like inactivity to remove them from the plot
So as long as those things are not rewritten, as presented this means that no character can be forced into a faction, and no corporation is forced into a situation that limits their trading potential. They can -choose- said situation but it's not forced.

So literally unless rules are rewritten, you are simply wrong Rizzo. And you can't sit here and say "Well there is the possibility of the rules being rewritten". Cause there's also the possibility that a rule gets written that says everyone has to play female characters. But I don't see you complaining about the possibility that ID-Sol characters would be banned if such a rule was implemented.

As things are currently written, there is no room for the problems you mentioned to happen, plain and simple. There is the possibility for someone to -choose- to put themselves in that situation if they think it'll be interesting RP, but then that's not a problem that's making fun RP through character difficulty.
 
So suppose a corporation wants to do business with a "rogue corporation". That is going to be interfered with. That means players are not being given a real option to use this. It's either surrender your independent, full neutral standing or be cut off from the rest of the setting. Either follow the laws or your chosen country while not in their boundaries or face criminal prosecution- wait, how can any government enforce any laws outside of its boundaries? Through a corporation? That can't be right. So who is enforcing these laws on the corporation anyway? A spook? Yeah, no, that isn't a good solution. So what if they deal in multiple currencies? It's apparently the determination of the YSE, my country, to outlaw that. But then how does international trade occur? Through the governments? Nah, that would be a horrible idea, it would be a huge bottleneck and the flow of money that serves as the lifeblood to a country would slow, maybe even halt- SO, while I know the first draft is rarely a finished product what I do know is that it is the goal. Really, if Wes wouldn't have made a not-threat to the concept of corporations meeting together I actually would have just ignored this but the idea that Yamatai can respond militarily toward civilians that are only considered problematic at Yamatai's own discretion is a pretty good sign that what's to come of this treaty is not freedom to choose a unique path but rather a step toward reducing independent RP from corporation type entities because some people treat them like psuedo-factions and other players(not naming names) try to power game so why not isolate the good and the misguided in their own pocket of space. Collateral damage, right?

Oh, but a corps like FSC are lawless and answer to no one, except this one is owned by a SAINT Operative that's used it to benefit Yamatai without a trace back to them. It's the perfect machine for Intel acquisition. But Yui ain't so agreeable to that arrangement, she'd rather just mess with USO and sacrifice a massive asset while leaving one of her fellow soldiers over two hundred million (200,000,000) KS in debt because they're all expendable, right? But fine, no problem. If it's time for FSC to fall it's just time to RP that, it's only a year of my time and effort out of 4 years on SARP. I'll RP it's death, and if you don't believe me just watch. ;)
The real question is, will I continue to create content and host RP events?
An even better question, why should I bother if it'll just be interfered with by other RPers?
Like I said, I'll make a plot out of the death of FSC. I can accept that. But what of the others involved? What about newer players that aren't aware of whether they'd be affected? They won't know until this is done an implemented. Will they leave?

This is not a safe idea. It's better to just leave things alone and let independents be independent, but not isolate them. If they want to operate outside the law and outside your jurisdiction but sell to whoever just let it be, let them identify as indie and leave well enough alone. I heard it said once that "good fences make good neighbors" but what do cages do? This treaty looks more like a cage for corporations to work inside of than a fence-like border. It limits the USO based corporations because now they have to 'license' in a country the characters won't know and force them to use currency their real home planet doesn't have. It forces them to leave thus leaving the USO with a smaller player base thus negatively affecting activity there. The treaty creates 2 cages, the big cage of the large factions and the little cage of the USO. This is called polarization and it leads to problems. A prime example: Gallant's separatists vs. SARP loyalists, a polarization in ideals lead to division, and those ideals were voluntary. This is forced. It is the reason why I say that you can't just throw rules at a problem, aside from every ruleset having failures at some point not all in attendance will accept these new rules and will disagree. A prime example: myself right now.
 
Rizzo, I agree with a lot of what you have to say here. However, the IC law also adresses some OOC problems Wes is having with the ntse. How then do you deal with the issue of corporate products not passing through proper FM vetting?
 
Contact the FM(s) in which the item is sold and ask them for approval to sell it in that territory. It can't be sold, or even created, in a territory of the FM if they disapprove.
 
@Rizzo Based on the current things said, a licensed Corp is not barred from doing business with a Rogue Corp. The Rogue Corp is barred from setting up shop in the Faction. Also the Factions aren't enforcing laws outside their boundires. When it says you have to follow their rules, they mean things like product restrictions and taxes and employment rules. Also where are you getting that companies are going to be banned from meeting each other, that is not listed in proposal you listed. As for currency, Firstly almost all currencies have a digital component in the setting, so international trade is way easier. And while this is kinda a loop hole the listed proposal does not stipulate what exactly it means by 'financial transactions'. But even assuming the company has to sell things in that currency only, that just means that there will be more diverse usage of currency. But honestly the currencies in RP get too much attention for how much they're actually used. Hardly anyone even list prices outside of DA and KS anyway so being super worried about that is jsut bieng nit picky.

All in all though, first paragraph, none of these 'bottlenecks' really exist on an OOC level, and would be inconsequential in RP unless you wanted to make them a big deal. Good try though.

Paragraph two, this has literally nothing to do with this. This happened without this proposal being around, so stop crying and grow up.

Paragraph 3, literally all I have to say to that is 'meh'. I don't know your track record, but I'm not too keen to care whether or not people who spend the day whining continue to produce content. If you don't like it go, oh well.

Paragraph four, this starts with honestly one of the most...I can't say what I think or I'll be called out for being rude. But in what universe do you think that people operating outside of the law should be protected by the law? You can still choose to operate outside the law in this setting, just like in real life. You know what that's called though? THE BLACK MARKET. Illegal business will always exist, but it is stupid to sit here and suggest that the IC factions should promote it. As for from an OOC stand point, Black Market companies are still allowed, just they don't get the ease of access and government protection legitimate companies do, like in real life.

Still on the fourth paragraph but you changed topics mid paragraph, USO players will not be forced to -leave- USO. Even if their corporation registers somewhere else, they simply have to build a facility there. They can still contribute towards Uso development if they choose to. Because again, companies can deal with rogue nations, it's rouge companies that can't set up shop in legitimate nations.

You have again failed to actually create any substantial points, and this time you have also failed to take in points that were previously mentioned, and ended up bringing up already resolved issues. This leads me to believe that you are either not actually trying to solve this and just want to make noise, are wholly unqualified to be discussing this in the first place, or you are having some issue grasping English.

Either way if I were a moderator I'd have locked this thread and muted you by now because all you're doing is grasping at straws to come up with some reason this is a bad idea. You are creating problems rather than trying to fix them. Doesn't help that you haven't really offered a solution either only "Just don't do it." We get that you don't like this idea, but simply your personal preference is your preference, and does not constitute a guideline for what is and isn't good for the site.

@Wes might I suggest closing this thread? Maybe create a thread outlining what exactly this propsal will change, and let people with genuine concerns talk there, and not here where people can pretend like they haven't already been given an answer just because it proves them wrong.
 
Just read entire thread twice, never saw anyone besides you say that licensed corporations can do business with rogue corps. You might want to check on that and make sure.
 
That sounds sketchy, like "oops, we missed a spot, I'll fix with an edit" sketchy. I'd like to hear Wes say it before believing that is the intention.
 
this whole things is just getting huge and confusing, and from everything I'm hearing it doesn't really sound like there will be much difference to current setup as people are saying, when I made my corp Wes asked what rules it was under and I said uso since thats where it's based, i'll probably just do some IC business licence stuff for birbland if frost still wants our gear, and probs nepleslia if legix is cool with that. Yamland might not accept us which i think is the only thing that this treaty rule thing is really making clear, that semi independent and USO corps wont be able to work with yam, at least not straight away.

maybe if i make a neko cruisliner starship for them to sail around and party on they'll let gh join the cool kids group
 
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