• If you were supposed to get an email from the forum but didn't (e.g. to verify your account for registration), email Wes at stararmy@gmail.com or talk to me on Discord for help. Sometimes the server hits our limit of emails we can send per hour.
  • Get in our Discord chat! Discord.gg/stararmy

Approved Submission [ONI] Indigo-class Guided Missile Frigate

Arieg

DEFCON Everybody Dies
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0 Downvote
This suggestion has been implemented. Votes are no longer accepted.
Zack said:
Why is this number of missiles excessive?
Click to expand...

Because (to the best of knowledge) no similarly-sized starship has such a massive number of missiles packed into it, @Zack - and I know for a fact that equivalently-sized Yamataian, Nepleslian, and Elysian ships do not carry anywhere near that many missiles.

***
Zack said:
There are other ships with similar massive amounts of missiles and DR output...
Click to expand...

What ships are you referring to, Zack - and are those ships anywhere near the size of the Indigo?

***
Zack said:
...and we haven't gotten a guideline on what is acceptable regarding missiles.
Click to expand...

Seeing as how they're utilized by the primary faction in the setting, wouldn't the Star Army of Yamatai's starships be an acceptable de facto guideline?

*******

As far as I know, @Ira, that particular rule was removed from the Damage Rating article a while ago, thus it no longer has any relevancy.

*******
Arieg said:
We've been over the missile issue, I believe we classified them as ammunition and the launchers the actual weapon systems.
Click to expand...

Agreed, @Arieg, but therein (in my humble opinion) lies the crux of the issue - no other Tier 11 starship that I know of has (or had):

*******
Zack said:
What is the normal number of weapon systems on a ship this size in SARP?
Click to expand...

The answer to that, in my humble opinion, should be "however many weapons a Plumeria-class Medium Gunship has."

***
Zack said:
We had a guideline for this previously and it keeps getting taken down.
Click to expand...

It was taken down for good reasons, in my humble opinion, as it was starting to make shipbuilding in SARP a stat-building numbers game that only served to hinder creativity and complicate submissions.

Yes, I'm being sincere when I say that; although I didn't feel that way at the time of the whole "missile fiasco," my views regarding he weapon limitations have since changed due to the benefit of hindsight.

***
Zack said:
Since there is no normal number of weapon systems for a ship this size and no guideline for how many weapons you should have no one can really say how many weapons it should have...
Click to expand...

That, in my humble opinion, is complete baloney - because anyone should be able to say that an escort with greater firepower then a heavy cruiser is over-gunned and overpowered.

***
Zack said:
...and it's super unfair to people who submit stuff to get judged on a guideline they can measure their stuff against.
Click to expand...

Again, Zack: In my opinion, if a newly-created submission severely outguns an equivalently-sized Star Army of Yamatai starship, that newly-created submission is overpowered.

***
Zack said:
The problem is made worse by the NTSE lacking a standard for missiles and other expendable weapons.
Click to expand...

Then why not make a new thread proposing such standards, Zack?

***
Zack said:
Ultimately there are ships above and below this in terms of weapons per unit of size for a variety of reasons.
Click to expand...

Would you mind providing links to the approved articles (of similarly-sized starships) that support this claim, Zack?

*******
Arieg said:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:indigo_class_frigate Template updated.
Click to expand...

@Arieg - Would you mind completing the rest of the "tasks" (for lack of a better term) Wes requested here, please?

Wes said:
Need to verify approved/not approved status of all subsystem articles as none of them say if the were approved or not.

[...]

Need clarification on how ONI and Origin are connected.
Click to expand...

Additionally, the Submission Rules require that the Faction Manager of Origin Industries - @CadetNewb - post his approval of the Indigo in this thread, due to the fact that the Indigo makes use of Origin equipment; lastly, I have a question:

The Indigo can - at any point in time, regardless of any modification/tricks/loopholes/shenanigans/etc. employed - only attack any number of targets with at most six missiles and four torpedoes, correct?
 
@FrostJaeger I'm jsut going to start one thing at a time as I bother to look them up. But you're counting weapons wrong. 'Launch Cells' do not equal individual weapons. In the case of the missiles you would count it by lannch arrays, because that's what's limiting the fire capability.What you're doing by counting the launch cells as weapons is like counting each barrel of a gun as a separate weapon. The Indigo specifically denotes that it has 3 Launch Arrays. Even if it has a thousand tubes, if there are only 3 firing systems with limited targeting and firing capability, that's 3 weapons. That would make it not that different from the Plumeria in fire power. Remember the Plumeria has 3 guns(2 types) that are above Tier 12 is power.
 

My apologies for not noticing that, @Syaoran - I'd written most of my previous post a while back, thus I missed some of the errors I'd made when completing it today - but even with the "correct" values, the Indigo still vastly outguns the Plumeria. Here's why:

The Ke-S3-2C/D Plumeria-class Medium Gunship, a Tier 11 Medium Starship, has the following armament:

The ON-F1-1a Indigo-class Guided Missile Frigate has the following armament:
 
Frost, do not speak on My or Origin's behalf - you are overstepping your authority. This has my approval as Origin's head.
 
Last edited:
@FrostJaeger You lowballed everything on that conversion. You know that main canon is likely 14 or 15. The positron canons are also SRD 4, so they'd be Tier 12, not 11. Then it doesn't have Secondary Anti ship turrets it's got SRD 3(Tier 11) Dual Anti Starship Turrets. Then it's got 11 Tier 9 anti mecha guns. Pretty much you got the whole weapon compliment wrong on the Plumeria Frost.
 
Also hate to double post, but missed this, the Anti Star Ship torpedoes are just as strong as the main cannon possibly. So they are likely Tier 14 or 15, possibly 13, but 14 is the median not 13. Indigo has more guns but also has a weaker individual power on its weapons on average.
 
Frost, you presumed to speak on Origin's behalf multiple times in this thread already by making direct mention that my approval was not given. And that's even after I DIRECTLY responded to you, stating that my approval was very clearly implicit due to my presence and that I was making no complaint. Yet, you continued to demand, even now, explicit approval. I've given it - do not speak on Origin's behalf again.
 

I got everything right, according to the Damage Rating article.

Syaoran said:
Also hate to double post, but missed this, the Anti Star Ship torpedoes are just as strong as the main cannon possibly. So they are likely Tier 14 or 15, possibly 13, but 14 is the median not 13. [...]
Click to expand...

That's incorrect, due to what I stated above - although I can certainly why you'd be confused, given that the Ke-Z1 Anti-Starship Torpedo article hasn't been converted yet.

CadetNewb said:
Frost, you presumed to speak on Origin's behalf multiple times in this thread already by making direct mention that my approval was not given.
Click to expand...

I did no such thing, seeing as how you never explicitly posted your approval until this post.

CadetNewb said:
And that's even after I DIRECTLY responded to you, stating that my approval was very clearly implicit due to my presence and that I was making no complaint.
Click to expand...

And? If you approved of this submission to begin with, why didn't you take the fifteen or so seconds necessary to post "FM approved" at an earlier point in time? That's literally all I was asking for you to do, Cadet. That's all.

CadetNewb said:
Yet, you continued to demand, even now, explicit approval.
Click to expand...

That's because you never once gave it until recently.

CadetNewb said:
I've given it - do not speak on Origin's behalf again.
Click to expand...

Please do not accuse me of things I did not do, CadetNewb.

Zack said:
@CadetNewb Frost has nothing to do with this article. I suggest you just put him on ignore.
Click to expand...

Please refrain from making (what I perceive to be) extremely offensive personal attacks, @Zack.
 
I think Zack's got the right idea guys. Let's just drop it and move on.

@Wes - what else does Arieg currently need in the article? I think a few of us are getting a little nervous since the deadline set is getting pretty close.
 
@FrostJaeger you didn't get everything right though <.<.



SDR 5 converts to 13~15 so 14 is the average. SDR4 converts to 12, SDR3 is 11, SDR1 is 9. The torpedoes have the potential to be SDR5
 
The Plumeria was the first ship to be translated to DRv3.

The Plumeria is armed with:
  • 1x Light Anti-Capital Aether Shock Cannon
  • 2x Medium Anti-Starship Positron Railguns
  • 4x Heavy Anti-Mecha Dual Cannons
  • 11x Light Anti-Mecha Quad Cannons
  • 1x Graviton Beam Projector
  • 2x Heavy Anti-Starship Z1 Torpedoes
These were values endorsed by Wes, in relation to how much damage those weapons were judged to be able to do on the Plumeria itself.

I did not update the Plumeria's article out of courtesy to Wes. However, many of them actually figure in the examples listed on the DRv3 page.

The commonality I saw in the armament of the Plumeria, Super Eikan and Sharie-class warships was also why I made up the "8-same-tier weapon" guideline. I understand it was a divisive topic and poorly adapted to ammunition-based weapons, especially more to something like Arieg's creation, but it was something to go on despite its flaws. I don't agree with Wes' assessment that it was particularily gamey, not when we historically prove that this problem comes back to bite us in the butt on a repeated basis.

Be it as it may, one way or another, I agree with Frostjaeger's input as to this ship being obscenely overarmed. Even if we don't go by a measured basis, looking at vessels bigger than this one and seeing the payload.

Now, this is not the first time Arieg presents this ship. I'll affirm: this isn't a problem that's happening because of DRv3. This would be a problem that would likely still happen under DRv2. This is a problem which would likely appear obvious from a SARP-only point of view: we look at this, and we see an overarmed ship in comparison to anything else that we have. But it doesn't mean I don't get where Arieg's coming from: he's taking example from the missile bays of actual naval vessels - it's not something that SARP has seen too much of. Arieg's like "what do you mean it doesn't work, they do it in the real world, surely we could do it better in the future" whereas the rest of us go "yeah, but it wouldn't fit in, you'd obsolete everything else".

This reminds me of Star Trek vs Star Wars debates. When people get sciency on it and put values on things, the Star Wars stuff shreds anything Star Trek - but the Star Wars stuff looks so backward and clunky that those fans favoring StarTrek don't really buy it. I think it's apples and oranges and can't really be compared.

Annnd I kind of feel that this is the same. This is a ship for a different universal aesthetic... and it's going to keep being blocked as long as Arieg doesn't agree to severely neuter his missiles to the point of non-contention, or doesn't reduce the amount of launchers/ammunition is order to conform more to vessels around the same size class...

...or until @Wes swings by and actually says he accepts Arieg's aesthetic of spacy battles in SARP, which will mean that everything else will escalate to match this new aesthetic. Or Wes shuts it down, meaning it's not approved and will stay that way. This is not the first resubmission of the Indigo, but in this case, persistence doesn't win you points when you trip over the same hurdles without adapting.

I'm calling it as I see it. We've chased our tail several times over that issue and I - for one - don't really want to waste more time on it.
 
We had a guideline for the amount of weapons that were acceptable on a ship and you had it removed Fred.

Now there is no way to say how many weapons are acceptable on a ship other than to look at what is already acceptable and this ship falls right in line with other ships like the Sharie in terms of firepower per point of SP.

So watching this, it does look like you're applying personal and highly subjective restrictions for no good reason because that is exactly what you're doing in a sense of an actual guideline.
 
To be honest, the reason why I originally approved it was because I felt the whole 'this ship is overarmed' thing was overblown. Seriously overblown. Missiles are a poor man's weapon, and pale in comparison to directed energy weapons or hyper-velocity cannons. They can be easily intercepted and shot down, and every evasive maneuver a missile makes to avoid said point defense is another moment not trying to close in and blow up the target to begin with. At the very most, the only paradigm that the Indigo would change, is having ships equip slightly better point defenses in order to completely thwart these.
 
Zack said:
We had a guideline for the amount of weapons that were acceptable on a ship and you had it removed Fred.
Click to expand...

If memory serves, Wes was the one who wanted it removed, @Zack.

Zack said:
Now there is no way to say how many weapons are acceptable on a ship other than to look at what is already acceptable and this ship falls right in line with other ships like the Sharie in terms of firepower per point of SP.
Click to expand...

@Wes has stated multiple times thay Star Army is not a point- and/or stat-based shipbuilding game, Zack, thus there is no such thing as "...firepower per point of SP."

Zack said:
So watching this, it does look like you're applying personal and highly subjective restrictions for no good reason because that is exactly what you're doing in a sense of an actual guideline.
Click to expand...

Excuse me? Precisely which part of Fred's post were you referring to, Zack?

CadetNewb said:
To be honest, the reason why I originally approved it was because I felt the whole 'this ship is overarmed' thing was overblown. Seriously overblown.
Click to expand...

So the ability to pull a Macross Missile Massacre on another target is "overblown"?


Remember, Cadet - qquantity has a quality of its very own.

CadetNewb said:
At the very most, the only paradigm that the Indigo would change, is having ships equip slightly better point defenses in order to completely thwart these.
Click to expand...

Why should one individual's repeated refusal to respect Star Army's "universal aesthetic" force everyone else to go through the time-consuming process of updating their faction's military equipment?
 
@Fred I would like the values for the weapons actually Equipped on the PLumeria, because even if you use the direct DR conversion chart, the weapons listed on the plumeria's page have higher power than the Indigo. 1 main cannon with 13Tier power minimum, 2 missiles that are single use and likely Tier 14 because of it, but would be minimum 13 for their highest missile. And then 2 Tier 12 cannons. The indigo has 4 Tier 12 weapons that -together- have a fire rate of 150% the main canon on the plumeria. -1- Gun to match the Positon Accelerators in duty. It fires once every 5 seconds, but the PLumeria gets 2 shots every 7.5 in it's configuration. Then there are 4 anti star ship turrets on the Plumeria with Tier 11 with an undisclosed fire rate, to match the three max tier 11 misisles arrays that cap out at a fire rate of 6 shots every 2 seconds. Then the Indigo has 6 uncontested guns at Tier 10, which is under its own weight class. And after that The Anti fighter/mech turrets the plumeria plain has more and they're stronger.

TL;DR the Plumeria outguns the Indigo in every match up, just the Indigo has has one set of uncontested guns, that are under tier. How does the Indigo out gun the Plumeria? Unless the Plumeria's values do not actually follow the conversion chart, the Plumeria has the Indigo beat in DPS in every match up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…