Rejected Submission Pack Power Armor

[Zack]

Submission Type: Power Armor (sorta)
Submission URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=faction:uso:packpowerarmor

Faction: USO
FM Approved Yet? Yes
Faction requires art? Yes

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? (Yes/No)
Contains New art? (Yes/No)
Previously Submitted? (Yes/No; explain reason if rejected)

Notes: Team USO needs some power armor, and that's going to mean building power armor for the Vek, For I'ee, for humans, for giant humans, for a dalmation taur, and for a giant sentient-mushroom-robot.

Rather than building one power armor for each of them, I am going to go the route of building a backpack that does everything a power armor does. Of course Uso is no Wazu, and kinda has to throw stuff together using her limited capabilities.

The idea is that as time goes on, USO will develop more homebrew gear and will be able to upgrade what they have on hand. In the mean time they have to deal with early versions of gear that aren't all that great.

 

[Syaoran]

@raz I have already quoted the line that says it's against the rules, but since you obviously are too important to read actual post I'll post it again.

The potency of barrier emitters are always on the same tier as the unit fielding it.4) Destroyers will have destroyer-tier barriers, light cruisers will have cruiser-tiered barriers, and so forth.

I'm not sure how that can be any more clear? Or is it that you don't understand what qualifies as T4 equipment? The examples of T4 equipment include the M2 Mindy and the M1 Demon, full fledged power armor. Where as T3 says -specifically- "human-sized, fullbody, not as thick as power armor". And has no real example but sights 'hard suits'. I'm pretty sure this would fall under the 'hardsuit' category. Or are you saying that it's not that simply because Zack says it is?

And even if, you can somehow qualify this as power armor grade. That still means it's barrier has to be limited when not being used by Power armors, and that needs to be mentioned on the sheet. Which was a requirement spawned from @Zack's own complaints. Or are you now saying he's above having to do that?

If it's just a backpack it'd be a heavy one. it would need its own power source and all the cool shield hardware...
Why not just make it an accessory to a power suit? You'll need something to protect your skin from the field of shield anyway. A cheap power suit can be made for the soldier fairly easy.

Ooooor, exo-suit it up! Maybe it can deploy into an exo-suit for humanoids, who'd need/want it and just have people wear a protective suit of something. maybe use spray on clothing.

THat has been suggested and he just doesn't want to change it, he's insistent that it be usable by troops not in power armors, even after harping on a submission that did that and having it forced to be nerf'd.

 

[Syaoran]

This is intended to be used with a full suit later on down the road, but for right now I'm just building the pieces one by one.

You see how hard it is to get gear through the NTSE that's already similar to what's out there.

If you want it to be used with a full suit, 'like already similar stuff' then just do what that 'already similar stuff' did. Put in a freakin' limiter that makes it so you can only use PA barriers while it's attached to a PA. This has been suggested to you at least like five times now. And it's exactly what the already similar things do.

 

[Navian]

That's not very good logic to follow, Amaryllis... If the candy fabricator directed the energy it uses to make candy into an energy beam, it'd be a warship-grade energy cannon. But it doesn't, and trying to figure out why it can't be used that way would be as silly as trying to come up with an efficiency-based explanation for why the setting has mechas and starfighters. It's just a candy machine.

55 pounds isn't 'trivial', but it's a normal weight for a loaded backpack. This backpack is extremely sturdy, to the point where it seems likely that more of the weight is in armour material than is in electronics. Some amount of the remaining weight has to go toward producing a barrier field strong enough for powered armour as well as its ability to fly around. And, after all that, it's not made by the people who made the candy machine, who can source parts from millions of manufacturers, have tens of thousands of people involved in the design process, or spend millions on a dedicated production line.

It's designed by one person, and uses what few components the manufacturers can safely get their hands on and assemble in prefab structures, on a backwater world where the finest engineering minds that can be recruited locally don't know how to build a flying machine and barely understand electric lighting, much less gravity manipulation circuitry.

So, the two aren't really comparable.

 

[Amaryllis]

I don't care if it's not perfect logic. It doesn't have to be ideal. The point is an energy generator that takes energy from another dimension can be very small. That's a pretty major thing. You also don't necessarily need a lot of weight to have substantial armor.

 

[Syaoran]

I don't care if it's not perfect logic. It doesn't have to be ideal. The point is an energy generator that takes energy from another dimension can be very small. That's a pretty major thing. You also don't necessarily need a lot of weight to have substantial armor.

How small a generator can get is actually entirely irrelevant Amary. Let's use your own logic here. Explain to me then why something that -is- power armor grade, appropriately sized, has the proper components, and way more computing power than this, in fact the set up is superior in every way than this, and already has the ability to produce PA grade barriers, is not allowed to produce those barriers unless the user is in a PA? Makes no sense right?

No one is telling him his thing can't exist. He's being told that he simply has to follow the rules while making it. Those rules include either making a limiter or not letting it go to PA levels, or making it so that people without T4 armor can't use it at all. He doesn't have to do all three, just any one of them.

 

[raz]

@Syaoran. The quote you provided says that equipment will have technology designed to match its classification. But it does not include any restrictions or guidelines concerning equipment parceled out from what would otherwise be considered a "complete" ship, power armor, or whatever. "Pack Power Armor" is just a shield generator that you wear.

Having a shield generator that you can wear is not against the rules. The fact that this kind of submission isn't addressed or wasn't considered doesn't make it against the rules at all. Denying it based on a narrow, restrictive interpretation of "tha rules" goes against the spirit of DRv3 itself and the collaborative vision SARP is supposed to have.

It's just a freaking shield that protects its user, and is obviously intended to be 188604's version of power armor (I think this was stated). It is literally worse than normal power armor and puts its user at a disadvantage for its intended role because they'll get insta-killed after the shields are depleted.

A certain set of people clearly just don't want Zack to succeed in making neat things for his expansive plot. I can't fathom why other than deep-seated pettiness.

 

[Rizzo]

Guys. This isn't armor. It's a shield generator. There's nothing here to compare to, what is again, the GUIDELINE that was passed. That was stressed several times. It's a guide, not a rigid set of Ultra complicated rules.

Furthermore, this is a component to a project in development. It's not like just anyone can use it, they'll need a form of Protective gear first. So what level of protection is needed?

EDIT: A little late but relevant, I think

 

[Zack]

To clarify, it is supposed to be the 'pack' part of a power armor.

The sensor article got approved recently, so the next version of this is going to have that thrown in.

Eventually everything a normal power armor does is going to have a decent article that is included in the pack so that we'll have a power armor that is race-agnostic. Just add some sort of armored/powered shell for the wasp/human/spider-thing on the inside and we're good to go.

I think it is a bit simpler and easier to use than the MACS mix and match setup, and a little more reasonable than the 'custom build every time' NDI armors.

 

[Syaoran]

@Syaoran. The quote you provided says that equipment will have technology designed to match its classification. But it does not include any restrictions or guidelines concerning equipment parceled out from what would otherwise be considered a "complete" ship, power armor, or whatever. "Pack Power Armor" is just a shield generator that you wear.

Having a shield generator that you can wear is not against the rules. The fact that this kind of submission isn't addressed or wasn't considered doesn't make it against the rules at all. Denying it based on a narrow, restrictive version of "tha rules" goes against the spirit of DRv3 itself and the collaborative vision SARP is supposed to have.

It's just a freaking shield that protects its user, and is obviously intended to be 188604's version of power armor (I think this was stated). It is literally worse than normal power armor and puts its user at a disadvantage for its intended role because they'll get insta-killed after the shields are depleted.

A certain set of people clearly just don't want Zack to succeed in making neat things for his expansive plot. I can't fathom why other than deep-seated pettiness.

No one is saying a wearable shield generator is against the rules. You answered your own questions. "Equipment will have technology designed to match it's classification". Yeah you can take a PA barrier off of a PA, but that's still a PA system, and for fairness sake that system needs to have a PA to operate at PA levels, or something equivalent. A naked person is not equivalent to a PA.

Now again, since you can't read what people say well. The backpack itself isn't the problem. It's that it's being allowed to generate PA grade shields on things -below- PA class. All that needs to be done to the article is make it so that -that- is not possible. Either by making it so it doesn't generate PA barriers, can't be used by non PAs(or equivalents), or simply has a limiter.

As for 'what was stated' it was clearly stated that it was intended to be used by people outside of PA class equipment as well, and that's the whole problem.

And if you want to talk about petty, why don't you look back into this topic about Zack dragging other submissions into this just because he wasn't having his way.

 

[raz]

The backpack itself isn't the problem. It's that it's being allowed to generate PA grade shields on things -below- PA class

Not a problem unless you want to make it a problem. Which you clearly do.

 

[Rizzo]

@Zack would this, or a purpose built version, be sufficient protection?
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=stararmy:uniforms:field_uniform_type_31

 

[Syaoran]

Not a problem unless you want to make it a problem. Which you clearly do.

Did you actually -read- the quote I posted? Why do I ask, of course you didn't. Well not only does that say barriers are as strong as the -unit- deploying them. Not 'the tech deploying them', but Wes, Fred, and Cadet, all staff or NTSE mods have -all- expressed Power armor class shields on a lower tahn PA soldier are not what they want in the setting, and that the barrier acutally even is harmful at that, and then adding to that that other submissions have to comply with this. Yes it -is- a problem.

The real question here is why you think Zack doesn't have to do what other similar pieces have to do.

 

[Fred]

Public Service Announcement:
If you cannot make a post without somehow demeaning or trolling another, maybe you should take a step back and return to the thread in awhile.
Thank you.

* * *

Now, if the squabbling can stop, maybe I can concentrate on writing my own recommendation post.

 

[Syaoran]

@Zack would this, or a purpose built version, be sufficient protection?
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=stararmy:uniforms:field_uniform_type_31

No Rizzo it wouldn't. Even an EVA grade personnel suit isn't enough protection.

 

[raz]

Since you're having trouble understanding really easy-to-understand concepts, @Syaoran: DRv3 was created, in part, to wipe away the awkward restrictions that old DR had. So, if a ship can mount a weapon at higher tier than it, there's nothing really stopping a tech creator from having the ingenuity to mount a shield of higher tier than its class. As Rizzo said, the DR system itself is just a guideline, and the current version specifically was made to help ideas rather than hinder them.

tl;dr: There is nothing stopping someone from saying "the item is this tier and the shields are this tier." Nothing. Nothing at all.

It's not hard to understand.

I'm not going to address how other people discussed other submissions because it's irrelevant. If other submissions were actually relevant, we could just cite Cadet's Ottyo and get every overpowered thing we thought up approved, rofl.

 

[Navian]

While it was meant to get rid of arbitrary restrictions, it wasn't meant to allow someone to design a handheld anti-starship rifle. So, it's alright to design something that's optimized for dealing with a larger threat, but not to design something that's as powerful as desired regardless of what form it takes. The former makes sense, the latter doesn't.

 

[Rizzo]

Hmm...
A Mindy is pretty light duty, all things considered. It's pretty much just an EVA capable power suit with advanced armor and a shield generator... So, technologically speaking, a power suit would be the minimum tech needed. To resist the shield generator. Alright.

So... what is it about the power suit component of the Mindy that makes it shield-proof?

 

[Navian]

We can't really answer that until we've decided what is it about shields that has to be proofed against.

 

[Syaoran]

Hmm...
A Mindy is pretty light duty, all things considered. It's pretty much just an EVA capable power suit with advanced armor and a shield generator... So, technologically speaking, a power suit would be the minimum tech needed. To resist the shield generator. Alright.

So... what is it about the power suit component of the Mindy that makes it shield-proof?

That's in discussion, but literally a powersuit(The orb weaver) was complained about for not being durable enough to do it, and eventually forced to stick with personnel shields. So unless that's revoked it would need to be at least more durable than a Powersuit.

 

[Rizzo]

I'm thinking that were really not as divided here as it may seem. I mentioned before V3 was passed that it would need amendments. Perhaps we should consider this type of issue as reason to propose an amendment. I personally would like to see each piece of tech, shields, armor, maneuverability, graded separately.