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Should we adopt a resource point system for shipbuilding?
- Thread starter Wes
- Start date
Abwehran Commander
Inactive Member
Sorry to resurrect this dead thread, but I've been searching through the Discussion page out of boredom and came across it. With the results of the poll, does this mean the resource system has been implemented?
If so, how would one assign said resource points to their held systems?
If so, how would one assign said resource points to their held systems?
Abwehran Commander
Inactive Member
No problem, the main reason I brought this back up was because I was going to revamp the Abwehran's Home Fleet and I wanted to make sure its more realistic than my previous incarnations.
Strangelove
Inactive Member
Shouldn't you make the cost increase exponentially based on increasing levels of complexity? Like one Aether Shock Array (DR 10 x 50 = A cost of 500) shouldn't cost the same as, say, two nuclear ballistic missiles (DR 5 x 2 x 50 = A cost of 500). Same thing goes for armor, shields, and engines.
Abwehran Commander
Inactive Member
Nice idea Leutre, but that would make the system incredibly complex and many of us have too much on our plate to go through complex systems of management when we have to do that in our daily lives.
Chigusa
Inactive Member
This idea should be forgone.
Keeping the SARP to smaller-scaled battles would be a good idea... However...
There are millions of power armors in the Star Army, and a single power armor has the capacity to obliterate a small gunship. So, it'd be kind of silly to try keeping the battles small-scale when you already have this little problem, no?
Besides, sometimes the bigger battles can be a lot more exciting.
Keeping the SARP to smaller-scaled battles would be a good idea... However...
There are millions of power armors in the Star Army, and a single power armor has the capacity to obliterate a small gunship. So, it'd be kind of silly to try keeping the battles small-scale when you already have this little problem, no?
Besides, sometimes the bigger battles can be a lot more exciting.
DocTomoe
Inactive Member
I'm with Chigusa on this one, certain groups will have a decisive advantage in regards to a "Firepower to resources ratio". Again, with things such as aether and zesuaium, it turns a simple shuttle or armor into a vicious low-cost beast.
There would also be a capability to exploit the system by organizing a "Zerg Rush" fleet that involves heavy ammounts of min-maxing. A generic example would be... mind you just an example... if the Yamatai Empire were to just produce Mindy armor for an entire IC year and put all their resource points into that, they'd have a hell-of-a-lot of armors, enough to wipe out an entire fleet due to sheer overwhelming numbers.
(Mmm give them the Aether Gatling too... that would be pretty sweet... and teleporter modules... and manipulator arm packs... and have them have the uber Kylie forearm projectors and rifles at the same time... and give all the pilot's Yuuko's battle memories... yea, that would be sweet.)
Either way, what I have said previously in this thread remains an issue... I just hope that when the system is implemented it works out fine in the end.
There would also be a capability to exploit the system by organizing a "Zerg Rush" fleet that involves heavy ammounts of min-maxing. A generic example would be... mind you just an example... if the Yamatai Empire were to just produce Mindy armor for an entire IC year and put all their resource points into that, they'd have a hell-of-a-lot of armors, enough to wipe out an entire fleet due to sheer overwhelming numbers.
(Mmm give them the Aether Gatling too... that would be pretty sweet... and teleporter modules... and manipulator arm packs... and have them have the uber Kylie forearm projectors and rifles at the same time... and give all the pilot's Yuuko's battle memories... yea, that would be sweet.)
Either way, what I have said previously in this thread remains an issue... I just hope that when the system is implemented it works out fine in the end.
Abwehran Commander
Inactive Member
It's true that some people running governments may try to do that, but you also have to consider the philosophical and political sides of said government. Would they honestly think about doing that the way we do? Though millions of low-cost beasties can destroy a lot, the same can be said about the million-gun ship. A ship with a large amount of fast-tracking turrets and weaponry have a tendency to wipe out such large groups of small pests.
With this said, a resource system works to limit this sort of thing. Low-cost beasties may sound like a good idea in thought, but when properly roleplayed out could spell disaster in a way, same can be said about the million-gun ship.
Either way, a system is bound to have some sort of loop hole. It's up to responsible roleplayers and realistic thinkers to make sure people stay within the boundries of reason.
With this said, a resource system works to limit this sort of thing. Low-cost beasties may sound like a good idea in thought, but when properly roleplayed out could spell disaster in a way, same can be said about the million-gun ship.
Either way, a system is bound to have some sort of loop hole. It's up to responsible roleplayers and realistic thinkers to make sure people stay within the boundries of reason.
Karma Mechanic
Inactive Member
Chigusa said:
Correction, there are more than that.
KFY Mindy said:
For simplicity's sake (I don't want this to me much more complicated than a board game) I will assign point values on a fixed "per system" basis. If there's some colony/mining ships/etc to harvest those resources, they'll be available for use next cycle. Each cycle will last two weeks, I think. Each planet's value might change over time due to increased population, more facilities, overmining etc.
The first cycle will begin Monday, January 1st 2007. As a default, all systems with colonies on them are worth 50,000 SRPs per cycle (enough to make about 3.25 Sakura gunships). Any system on the map labeled as a mining colony or specifically stated as "mineral rich" or similar is worth 100,000 SRPs per cycle.
I'll make a shipbuilding forum, I think, where each nation will have a thread (including the Mishhu) to track their points.
Yamatai's Current Resources:
Hoshi no Iori (0) - I may change this later due to energy-matter conversion facilities there, but for fairness purposes I think I'll just like HNI as zero points for now.
Tami (50,000 SRP)
Albini (50,000 SRP)
Yamatai (50,000 SRP)
Anisa (50,000 SRP)
Nataria (50,000 SRP)
Tatiana (50,000 SRP)
Gashmere (50,000 SRP)
Ohara (50,000 SRP)
Xyainbor (100,000 SRP - mineral rich)
Valaad (50,000 SRP)
Ushobrakflug (50,000 SRP)
Mwigflukbajik (100,000 SRP - mineral rich)
Hyulughflar (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Kunniumakrflra (50,000 SRP)
Urghaflu (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Tsuyosa (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Hanako's Star (50,000 SRP)
Kohana (100,000 SRP - These points go to NovaCorp, though.)
Lor (50,000 - These points go to Lor instead of Yamatai)
Total Yamatai SRP/cycle: 800,000 (About 52 Sakura Gunships)
Nepleslia's Current Resources:
Nepleslia (50,000 SRP)
Delsauria (50,000 SRP)
New Kohana (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Rok'Veru (50,000 SRP)
Kennewes (50,000 SRP - These points go to the Reds)
Total Nepleslia SRP/cycle: 150,000 (About 10 Sakura Gunships)
Elysia's Current Resources:
New Elysia (50,000 SRP)
Veritas (50,000 SRP)
Total Elysia SRP/cycle: 100,000 (About 6.5 Sakura Gunships)
Sfrarabla Mishhuvurthyar Nougpift Current Resources:
Core:
Moriva (50,000 SRP)
Fhasho (50,000 SRP)
Splrug (50,000 SRP)
Nougfran (50,000 SRP)
Sbuhfaba (50,000 SRP)
Bufarks (50,000 SRP)
Higaflan (50,000 SRP)
Rojbushra (50,000 SRP)
Hukka (50,000 SRP)
Total: 450,000
Northern Sector:
Mishhuvurthyar no Iori (???)
Svodog (50,000 SRP)
Flarghrishimmi (50,000 SRP)
Mishhuvurthyar (50,000 SRP)
Ukk (50,000 SRP)
Sfpurflik (0 SRP - No mining activity)
Total: 200,000
Eastern holdings:
Arzank
Fujiko (100,000 SRP - mineral rich)
Rufusland (100,000 SRP - mineral rich)
Refidh (50,000 SRP)
Jun (50,000 SRP)
Splorfin (50,000 SRP)
Bizankro (50,000 SRP)
Talori (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Goumon (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Murf (50,000 SRP)
Kilnar (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Total: 450,000
Total SMN SRP/cycle: 1,100,000 (About 71.4 Sakura Gunships)
The first cycle will begin Monday, January 1st 2007. As a default, all systems with colonies on them are worth 50,000 SRPs per cycle (enough to make about 3.25 Sakura gunships). Any system on the map labeled as a mining colony or specifically stated as "mineral rich" or similar is worth 100,000 SRPs per cycle.
I'll make a shipbuilding forum, I think, where each nation will have a thread (including the Mishhu) to track their points.
Yamatai's Current Resources:
Hoshi no Iori (0) - I may change this later due to energy-matter conversion facilities there, but for fairness purposes I think I'll just like HNI as zero points for now.
Tami (50,000 SRP)
Albini (50,000 SRP)
Yamatai (50,000 SRP)
Anisa (50,000 SRP)
Nataria (50,000 SRP)
Tatiana (50,000 SRP)
Gashmere (50,000 SRP)
Ohara (50,000 SRP)
Xyainbor (100,000 SRP - mineral rich)
Valaad (50,000 SRP)
Ushobrakflug (50,000 SRP)
Mwigflukbajik (100,000 SRP - mineral rich)
Hyulughflar (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Kunniumakrflra (50,000 SRP)
Urghaflu (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Tsuyosa (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Hanako's Star (50,000 SRP)
Kohana (100,000 SRP - These points go to NovaCorp, though.)
Lor (50,000 - These points go to Lor instead of Yamatai)
Total Yamatai SRP/cycle: 800,000 (About 52 Sakura Gunships)
Nepleslia's Current Resources:
Nepleslia (50,000 SRP)
Delsauria (50,000 SRP)
New Kohana (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Rok'Veru (50,000 SRP)
Kennewes (50,000 SRP - These points go to the Reds)
Total Nepleslia SRP/cycle: 150,000 (About 10 Sakura Gunships)
Elysia's Current Resources:
New Elysia (50,000 SRP)
Veritas (50,000 SRP)
Total Elysia SRP/cycle: 100,000 (About 6.5 Sakura Gunships)
Sfrarabla Mishhuvurthyar Nougpift Current Resources:
Core:
Moriva (50,000 SRP)
Fhasho (50,000 SRP)
Splrug (50,000 SRP)
Nougfran (50,000 SRP)
Sbuhfaba (50,000 SRP)
Bufarks (50,000 SRP)
Higaflan (50,000 SRP)
Rojbushra (50,000 SRP)
Hukka (50,000 SRP)
Total: 450,000
Northern Sector:
Mishhuvurthyar no Iori (???)
Svodog (50,000 SRP)
Flarghrishimmi (50,000 SRP)
Mishhuvurthyar (50,000 SRP)
Ukk (50,000 SRP)
Sfpurflik (0 SRP - No mining activity)
Total: 200,000
Eastern holdings:
Arzank
Fujiko (100,000 SRP - mineral rich)
Rufusland (100,000 SRP - mineral rich)
Refidh (50,000 SRP)
Jun (50,000 SRP)
Splorfin (50,000 SRP)
Bizankro (50,000 SRP)
Talori (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Goumon (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Murf (50,000 SRP)
Kilnar (0 SRP - no mining facilities)
Total: 450,000
Total SMN SRP/cycle: 1,100,000 (About 71.4 Sakura Gunships)
Yangfan
Inactive Member
[edit: cross-posted with Wes. I'll leave what I wrote here as suggestions.]
I'll resist the urge to hide behind a rock and comment on this:
It looks like the ships-for-resource system will be complicated. There is no way around that. Writing ship designs is itself is a complex OOC task, and you really need to account for each subsystem to avoid abuse. Otherwise people will just cram hundreds of guns onto a hull and call it a "light escort". :?
But all other aspects of any resource system can and should be kept simple. One major aspect that I see is how resource points will be generated.
Each system must have one statistic:
* Resource point value: A generalized measure of the strategic worth of a system. By strategic, I don't mean location, which does not need to be reflected by the resource system. I rather mean how much raw material production and/or processing power the system possesses. For simplicity, resources should not degrade over time. We won't have to worry about that for another few IC decades at least.
In addition, each heavily populated system (as opposed to systems with only mining outposts or military garrisons) should have the following values:
* Morale (0% - 100%): Represents general degree of happiness of local population. This would be lower for planets that recently suffered attacks, and higher for planets far from war zones. Exact value should be negotiated OOCly between system owner and owner of central government.
Loyalty lower than 100% will cause the actual resource points generated by a system to decrease, although exactly how should be debated.
Extremely low morale values will cause loyalty to suffer, and vice versa. But systems will not rebel due to low morale alone.
* Loyalty (0% - 100%): Represents the percentage of the planet population that is tolerant of the central government. This would be near 100% for tightly controlled capitol systems such as Yamatai, and a bit lower for clients worlds on the fringe of Imperial influence, such as Lor. Exact value should be negotiated OOCly between system owner and owner of central government.
Note that the citizens of a planet might dislike the central government and still be "loyal". Only those actually contemplating rebellion should be counted as "disloyal".
Loyalty lower than 100% will cause the actual resource points generated by a system to decrease, although exactly how should be debated. Loyalty lower than 75% should cause social unrest. Loyalty lower than 50% and you probably have a civil war in the system. Loyalty lower than 25% and you're looking at open rebellion against the current government.
This will encourage central governments to look after their client states.
Outposts:
Not all systems will have those last to values. Mining colonies, military outposts, etc., will only have a few hundred to a few thousand military personnel. Loyalty will be high and morale will most likely be low. (Unless the local system is a veritable paradise.) Systems that had the local population wiped out, such as Albini, will lose those two values as well.
These systems should have much lower resource point values. A few hundred homesick miners and/or soldiers can only do so much, after all.
The way I see it, each empire, besides possibly Yamatai, will have only a few systems with major population centers. This will encourage expansion and colonization missions. Although most colonized systems will be of the outpost type, and thus have only one stat and will not generate much resources. This might make first contact missions attractive. But non-outpost planets are resource-rich and thus major targets. (Not to mention more paperwork for the empire owner.)
Bringing another civilization under your banner should be the only way to gain non-outpost systems.
On the other hand, expand too fast and Yamatai will see you as a threat. Another trade-off.
Other stats should be for IC flavor only, and therefore should be optional or at least lower priority:
* Population
* Planets in system (number, types, descriptions, etc.)
* Major species
* etc
... I'm willing to help play-test this aspect of the system before we actually use it.l
I'll resist the urge to hide behind a rock and comment on this:
It looks like the ships-for-resource system will be complicated. There is no way around that. Writing ship designs is itself is a complex OOC task, and you really need to account for each subsystem to avoid abuse. Otherwise people will just cram hundreds of guns onto a hull and call it a "light escort". :?
But all other aspects of any resource system can and should be kept simple. One major aspect that I see is how resource points will be generated.
Each system must have one statistic:
* Resource point value: A generalized measure of the strategic worth of a system. By strategic, I don't mean location, which does not need to be reflected by the resource system. I rather mean how much raw material production and/or processing power the system possesses. For simplicity, resources should not degrade over time. We won't have to worry about that for another few IC decades at least.
In addition, each heavily populated system (as opposed to systems with only mining outposts or military garrisons) should have the following values:
* Morale (0% - 100%): Represents general degree of happiness of local population. This would be lower for planets that recently suffered attacks, and higher for planets far from war zones. Exact value should be negotiated OOCly between system owner and owner of central government.
Loyalty lower than 100% will cause the actual resource points generated by a system to decrease, although exactly how should be debated.
Extremely low morale values will cause loyalty to suffer, and vice versa. But systems will not rebel due to low morale alone.
* Loyalty (0% - 100%): Represents the percentage of the planet population that is tolerant of the central government. This would be near 100% for tightly controlled capitol systems such as Yamatai, and a bit lower for clients worlds on the fringe of Imperial influence, such as Lor. Exact value should be negotiated OOCly between system owner and owner of central government.
Note that the citizens of a planet might dislike the central government and still be "loyal". Only those actually contemplating rebellion should be counted as "disloyal".
Loyalty lower than 100% will cause the actual resource points generated by a system to decrease, although exactly how should be debated. Loyalty lower than 75% should cause social unrest. Loyalty lower than 50% and you probably have a civil war in the system. Loyalty lower than 25% and you're looking at open rebellion against the current government.
This will encourage central governments to look after their client states.
Outposts:
Not all systems will have those last to values. Mining colonies, military outposts, etc., will only have a few hundred to a few thousand military personnel. Loyalty will be high and morale will most likely be low. (Unless the local system is a veritable paradise.) Systems that had the local population wiped out, such as Albini, will lose those two values as well.
These systems should have much lower resource point values. A few hundred homesick miners and/or soldiers can only do so much, after all.
The way I see it, each empire, besides possibly Yamatai, will have only a few systems with major population centers. This will encourage expansion and colonization missions. Although most colonized systems will be of the outpost type, and thus have only one stat and will not generate much resources. This might make first contact missions attractive. But non-outpost planets are resource-rich and thus major targets. (Not to mention more paperwork for the empire owner.)
Bringing another civilization under your banner should be the only way to gain non-outpost systems.
On the other hand, expand too fast and Yamatai will see you as a threat. Another trade-off.
Other stats should be for IC flavor only, and therefore should be optional or at least lower priority:
* Population
* Planets in system (number, types, descriptions, etc.)
* Major species
* etc
... I'm willing to help play-test this aspect of the system before we actually use it.l
