Uniform Updates for the Star Army of Yamatai

[Syaoran]

Does this need to be an SAoY-wide uniform? It sounds like something more specific to your own plot, rather than something all of Yamatai wants to use. Yes, you're the manager and all, but I just don't see a lot of other characters wanting to use this for art, especially if it's just a plain green coverall with a hat.

I don't think this is intended to be a uniform people get pictures in. It sounds like it's purely there to keep what ever combat uniform you have from getting damaged.

This sounds more appropriate for the Star Army Infantry than the Shipboard members.

Since it's for protecting your clothes and green I don't think it was ever intended for ship board crews. Not even for actual battle just a suit to wear while idling in a possibly hostile terrestrial environment without standing out like a sore thumb.

 

[Wes]

Does this need to be an SAoY-wide uniform? It sounds like something more specific to your own plot, rather than something all of Yamatai wants to use.

My plot is space-based, so I don't know if we'll use it that much. Mainly I created it because I was focusing on the Legions (due to international concerns regarding peace treaties). The main focus is for it to be issued to our ground troops (perhaps until something better comes along). Yamatai's uniforms are Army-wide, and it's okay for space forces to use the coverall as an EPJ replacement/maintenance gear or non-pressurized flight suit if they don't want to for for the pilot suit or AMES. But mainly it's for the legions in the situation described in my big post above.

Also, I want to point this out since I haven't been able to update the uniform regs yet: The green coverall is for operational/field use, not for going out on the town. Compare to the (solid) blue coveralls used in the US Navy which are limited to use on ships only.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Mainly I created it because I was focusing on the Legions (due to international concerns regarding peace treaties). The main focus is for it to be issued to our ground troops (perhaps until something better comes along). Yamatai's uniforms are Army-wide, and it's okay for space forces to use the coverall as an EPJ replacement/maintenance gear or non-pressurized flight suit if they don't want to for for the pilot suit or AMES. But mainly it's for the legions in the situation described in my big post above.

Ahhhh, OK. I'm cool now. Whether it mainly gets used by Legions or sees wider use, knowing the intended user helps.

Also, I want to point this out since I haven't been able to update the uniform regs yet: The green coverall is for operational/field use, not for going out on the town. Compare to the (solid) blue coveralls used in the US Navy which are limited to use on ships only.

This is a crucial part and will be good to see in regulation.

 

[ShotJon]

Because it would be too hard to make working uniform or bodysuit in camo colouring of whatever choice we ant.......... not to mention good luck getting in armour in those baggy pants that coveralls have.

Also comparing something as cool as EPJ with coveralls....

 

[Syaoran]

Because it would be too hard to make working uniform or bodysuit in camo colouring of whatever choice we ant.......... not to mention good luck getting in armour in those baggy pants that coveralls have.

Also comparing something as cool as EPJ with coveralls....

I do not think you will actually get in the armor in the coveralls. The point is to wear them over bodysuits and such, so that when you're not in your PA or combat you don't have to expose possibly sensitive equipment to the elements, nor are you walking around all neon. They were made as coveralls so that you could take them off in a hurry and hop into a PA or something without a problem. From my understanding this is meant to be purely to protect your actual uniform or combat gear you wear under it, and to make you less noticeable when on a planet.


Also correct me if I'm wrong, but the legion is being mentioned and I'm not sure if I'm remembering right, but doesn't SAoY have a plan of action for invading Nepleslia if they ever go to war again? Or was it the other way around? But either way, people keep mentioning that SAoY is so far ahead of everyone else. But from what I've seen on the wiki, SAoY does have more tech, but that tech does not translate into total combat superiority. Other races are very capable of taking down SAoY stuff if they can get it in their sights. So having a bunch of people running around in rainbow colored uniforms unarmored, no matter how technologically advanced you are, pretty sure you can't stop a sniper round or HE missiles as an unarmored infantry. And yeah there's that fancy inertia control stuff, but that only works if you know it's coming. So this leaves me confused as to why it's been mentioned that SAoY is advanced enough where they don't need to worry about functionality.

So yeah I see there's an image they need to uphold, but this doesn't really break that image. Cause this isn't something they're supposed to wear wear publicly. It was compared to the EPJ I believe because it was comparing use and function, not style. This is supposed to be a purely functional piece of clothing it seems, to make up for SAoY's somewhat over the top uniform design. But it's not getting rid of the uniforms, just literally covering them in situations where said uniforms would become a hindrance.

I might be a bit out of line with this post, not sure. But just I've been holding that stuff in since like the beginning of this discussion.

 

[CadetNewb]

Why the Type 35 and Type 30 Uniforms

I think that the point of bringing up the Type 35 and 30 Uniforms was just plain missed. It's not about replacing them, or even arguing about the evolution of SAoY asthetics and where they're heading.

It was about how a new change was made to the setting, but without very much discussion. The fact that we made the switch despite their protests is still frustrating to a lot of players. It's just not a mental association any FM would want players to have when it comes to brand new artwork for the setting, and double - hell, quadruple - that if it cost money. That stuff's a finite resource, and it should be spent wisely by being considerate, listening to and taking feedback from the community to make sure the end product is something that they'd like. I didn't want that to happen here.

With the Coveralls

Before I read and discovered what these coveralls were meant for, I was initially under the impression that they were to be something akin to a replacement for the Type 31 Engineering Protective Jumpsuit, as they seemed to be the only other coverall-like item in our inventory's history, and therefore all I had to go off of. I felt that if it were to have a successor, it should have been more fitting. I'm sorry for the fuss, but even after finally learning what this was really intended for, I have to say that's starkly utilitarian. Even for the SAoY. Like Kokuten said, it's practically Nepleslian.

To be honest? I've been awake for over 24 hours. Thinking about it, I last woke up around 0700 yesterday, stayed up all night working on a careplan on one of my patients, went to class for the day and turned it in, and am now sitting here on SARP. Where it's now 2035. I've...been awake for 35 hours? Is that right?

My point is, that even in my sleep deprived state, I can tell you that though the coverall suits your needs of not only having a practical piece of equipment for the Star Army of Yamatai while being simple/easy to draw so that artists can make many of them, it just doesn't have character. Yes, the faction marking is there on the shoulders, of course. But it only feels like any other military jumpsuit, coverall or BDU with the Yamataian flag on it. There has to be a more SAoY Orientated alternative that has the same performance as the coverall in the field.

 

[ShotJon]

Well I am just going to say this and I am fairly sure I am not speaking only for myself, but I have this problem with coveralls. Yes, they are practical, yes they are utilitarian , but in my opinion they lack spirit, they are not nice to look at or even give you that feel of "yes this is cool, I want to see my char in this". They are ruggedy, practical and fairly boring, which is something I would never want to have as uniform for SAoY.

For me SAoY uniforms were always about being cool, spiffy and out of this world. Having something that navy-personall in 21st century wears on ships just breaks this all. TLDR, it just does not fit Yamatai spirit in my opinion.

 

[Wes]

I think that the point of bringing up the Type 35 and 30 Uniforms was just plain missed. It's not about replacing them, or even arguing about the evolution of SAoY asthetics and where they're heading.

It was about how a new change was made to the setting, but without very much discussion. The fact that we made the switch despite their protests is still frustrating to a lot of players. It's just not a mental association any FM would want players to have when it comes to brand new artwork for the setting, and double - hell, quadruple - that if it cost money

From early concepts to finish, the Type 35 duty uniform was transparently discussed; you can find the it starting at page 13 of this thread. There wasn't a huge uproar about the Type 35 uniform (although there were a couple of people who posted they liked the Type 30 better). The Type 35 uniform allowed us to spend our commission money better because it standardized uniforms so that our commissions actually matched each other and also opened up chibis in the duty uniform instead of the black coat, which a lot of people didn't care for.

One of the people who objected to it was Fred:

It makes it look more ground-to-earth than the present designs we have... and that's actually a direction I don't find appealing. What I'd like to see with the Star Army of Yamatai is not more realistic uniforms, but rather uniforms that would look thematically stronger, and futuristic in the sci-fi sense.

Which I find interesting because it's basically the same things as people said about the coverall.

But the reason the coverall doesn't look very advanced is because it isn't. And that's okay. We already have combat armor for combat and we have spacesuits for environmental hazard areas. It doesn't need to be either of those. It's just your basic utilitarian, cheap, and semi-disposable coverall.

I appreciate that there's a demand for a more unique iteration of the coverall, but nobody's put anything better looking forward, and I'm okay with what I've made. I worked hard on it and it satisfies my needs.

 

[ShotJon]

I did noted that giving working uniform and bodysuit a recolour so they could be used in field and maybe a belt with some pockets for bodysuits for practicality now that I think of it. But I guess that counts as nothing. Oh well.

 

[CadetNewb]

Honestly? With the Type 35, I don't believe I even heard about it until it was too far along to stop - I can't recall there being an announcement or anything, but I could be wrong. One of the frustrating things about the site in general (and I do love SARP anyways) is that it feels too easy for some sort of large change to happen without even noticing until it's too late. Sometimes even after the fact, and then one day saying, "Since when?!" or "What did you say happened?!" Even finding out about this coverall was by sheer chance. The transparency is there, but it's in a corner that's not always looked at. Out of the way. Now that we're in a new forum system though, maybe sending out a notice for these kinds of things is a good idea? The biggest gripe is that things like the Type 35 tend to render all preexisting commissions obsolete.

If a a guy has only one shot to get a commission, and gets it? And then it's out of date? Sucks to be that guy.

Moving on to the Coveralls though, I think I may have an idea. When I mentioned the plug suits, I did not mean something brightly colored and with lights, rather, their ability to compress to fit the user after being quickly and easily put on, as well as their well known ability to put emphasis on the wearer. Considering that the Type 35 is naval use, and this is meant for planetside use, why not have something similar to the FROG or Combat Shirt? They look good on men and women I think, and are quite practical. Some artistic versions of it seem interesting indicators for how it could go for us as well.

With some modifications to both practical and general asthetics, it can be made to fit the SAoY quite well I think. The design can be made into a jumpsuit or coverall as mentioned, and the asthetics? Well, it emphasizes the person wearing it a bit more, and can be made to do so to an even greater degree, if you're aware of the topic matter I'm referring to. Additionally, the design's camo can be dynamic - instead of having it with a plain chest and camo with the rest, we could just say that there's color changing pigments in the garment, allowing for a two tone design, where the chest is simply a lighter shade of olive drab or whatever. Hell, the majority of the suits by default can be our dark uniform blue, with the chest being the occupation color - once they step outside the FOB's cafeteria? Olive drab chest with camo for the rest, or what have you. It can even come with an ultra thin, flexible interface device over the wrist or something. The possibilities are quite wide - we just need to keep mulling over it.

Additionally? I simply feel that this is obligatory, considering what was mentioned before.

 

[Aendri]

Also, it needs to be pointed out, that at least part of the lack of objections draws from the regularity with which they're simply brushed aside. No offense, Wes, but despite the larger turnout of objections on the coveralls (a much smaller part of the setting), you're still going ahead with it, despite a lack of endorsements. You've had people saying they can deal with it, and people saying they're against it, but not a single one speaking cleanly in favor of it, and it's going through anyway. It makes it hard for us to feel like it matters if we object, which I recall being the feedback from several people I asked to chime in during the Type 35 discussion. If feedback isn't taken into consideration, people stop feeling like GIVING feedback.

 

[Syaoran]

Also, it needs to be pointed out, that at least part of the lack of objections draws from the regularity with which they're simply brushed aside. No offense, Wes, but despite the larger turnout of objections on the coveralls (a much smaller part of the setting), you're still going ahead with it, despite a lack of endorsements. You've had people saying they can deal with it, and people saying they're against it, but not a single one speaking cleanly in favor of it, and it's going through anyway. It makes it hard for us to feel like it matters if we object, which I recall being the feedback from several people I asked to chime in during the Type 35 discussion. If feedback isn't taken into consideration, people stop feeling like GIVING feedback.

That's not entirely the case. Wes has said if a better idea is given he will use that, and that this is just filling the space until a better idea comes to the front, because it is something that is technically needed. Cadet's last post is the only thing that's really been a concrete idea and not just "I don't like it." and "You should just use what we already have." So it's not that he's ignoring the feed back it's that the feed back is ignoring what Wes said really.

Anyway if people don't want coveralls they just have to suggest something better. But ground forces do kinda need clothes for when they're not in power armor. We can't just have them run around in the nude. I personally think the coveralls are okay. They're not the best idea no, but well they're the only idea that's been fully presented till Cadet's post.

 

[Aendri]

Except we've had several outfits that filled those roles, like the field uniform, the EPJ, several different duty uniforms (which are your standard uniform where nothing else applies), and so on. I'd buy the "this is just because nothing better has been suggested" argument much more if several other uniform pieces hadn't been removed, creating several holes, under the pretense that we need "less uniforms". It feels like we "need" less of any uniform that doesn't appeal to the bossman at any given moment, but if something catches his eye, a need is created.

Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here, but the lack of a consistent argument makes it hard to buy into the arguments that are being made now.

 

[CadetNewb]

Brief, before I go to bed, but what Aendri said. It's happened before, and it feels like Deja Vu. Initially, I didn't suggest much because I simply was unable to come up with something. And yet, already, it was being pushed through anyways. That's not right. It should slow down so everyone can take a breath, sit down and think about it. Though it's great to be fast and expedient, it's absolutely worthless if there's no proper "Research and Development" done to make sure it fits the needs of the "Client". That is, the players. Yes, there's roles that need to be filled in the setting, that's fine. But it's got to be done, and done right. It will take more time, but it only hurts us all much more in the long run if its not - the very feelings lingering over the Type 35 is proof of this.

I'd like to avoid that - it's just not healthy for our RP or community.

Focusing on the concept of having something to wear on the ground while out of armor and on base or having some Neko Operators Operating Operationally, what do you guys think of the ideas so far? Or, any ideas of your own?

 

[Wes]

A while back, someone suggested a tactical color version of the working uniform. It's something I have been considering. Although that would not be as useful as a coverall, it would eliminate the need for a coverall in some situations. It would make more sense to change the color rather than add a new version where characters have to stuff both in their duffel. In essence, all working uniforms would go from dark blue and light blue-gray accessories to solid olive green for all components, and the color panels on them would no longer be colored. Since the top of the working uniform is basically skin-tight this would be sort of like a combat shirt.

Pros

• More camouflage, allowing for more situations where it's usable on planets
• Uniform more usable for non-power-armored combat due to knee and elbow pads, utility belt

Cons

• Not as cool looking as the blue one
  
• Not as easy to get on and off as coverall, because it has thigh holster, elbow/knee pads - might take longer to suit in PA
  
• Makes obsolete a non-trivial amount of older art (11+ pieces of expensive character art) including our older business cards
• Not usable as a disposable protective garment for messy work

Thoughts?

 

[ShotJon]

I like idea of of camo-changing Working uniform, though I disagree with you cons. Taking of a belt does not tkae that long, besides, the knee pads are less restrctive then thick legs sleeves that coveralls had, when you try to climb into PA. Also working uniform looks much cooler then coveralls. Not to mention all it would do now, is change colour when you press button so I do not see how this tosses all that old art of working uniforms out of the window.

 

[Wes]

No neko with a functional brain would try to slide her legs into power armor while still wearing working uniform knee pads. And the coverall isn't for wear under power. I am not a fan of making working uniforms color-changing; the reason I implemented the coveralls in the first place because I wanted something simple, not something that would require advanced electronics and a power supply.

 

[Aendri]

C'mon, Wes, we all know the COOL nekos are still using their armors nekkid.

 

[CadetNewb]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were many Neko that simply did so out of habit. It'd likely be Yamataians that wouldn't strip for the classy suit up sequence. Still, Wes does have a point; the working uniforms are made so they specifically can hop into a PA if it supports a clothed user. Not the most comfortable considering the boots, but it'd work.

Humorously, the color changing pigments are something we're already working on IRL - the thing about them is that they're low power, something that's definitely a plus. They only need a brief charge to make them change color, and after that, they hold it on their own due to being simply pigments. They're related to OLED technology, except without the glow apparently. The amount of power that they'd need is probably somewhere along the lines of an iPhone - a wristwatch like device integrated into the uniform in our setting would likely be able to accomplish that. It's not hard to see us dying our cloth with the stuff.

So far though, it seems like we have 3 ideas now, though each has its ups and downs.

1. Coveralls
2. Modified Working Uniform
3. Combat Jumpsuit

The Coveralls are simply the most cost effective, simple and cheap solution, and IRL, they'd probably win out considering what their intended use is. However, looking at it from an In-Character standpoint, it simply feels unlikely to be adopted - Yamatai had historically always touted itself as the best, using the very finest gear available. This is simply Nepleslian in design, which goes counter to what we've seen of them so far. It feels like Yamatai simply doesn't do simple to me! OOC, it's a lot easier to have commissioned in bulk, but the issue of appearance comes up again.

The Modified Working Uniform is the middle of the road option, being simply an altered version of a preexisitng uniform. This simplifies logistics and reduces costs, though likely not as much as the Coveralls. Plus, they also retain their Star Army asthetics, which is another big plus. The downside however, is that they're Fleet in origin, not ground. Swapping the color palate may simply not look good from both an IC and OOC standpoint. Other than that, it has no other problems and actually seems quite viable, though, ideally with some more modifications. What I don't understand though, is what pieces of commissioned artwork it would render obsolete - if someone could explain that to me, I'd be glad.

The Combat Jumpsuit is probably the most complex out of them all and - I hope; they haven't commented on its concept yet - is appealing to the audience. The idea is based off the USMC FROGs and US Army Combat Shirt, so we know its practical. Aesthetically, it'd be made to fit the user much more closely around the chest and waist, and be modified into an actual jumpsuit or coverall for our setting. The sleeves and leggings can likely be left loose as with what they're based off of, or be modified further, maybe closer as well? Additionally, we could either go with a two-tone color scheme of simple olive drab, or go for the color changing pigment, meaning that the cost of this is variable depending on what we want. The uniform is relatively simple and easy to draw as well. What I also realized however, is that it may be possible to integrate it into the Type 31 Field Uniform as whats worn under it, just like that image of the FROGs above, and bring that back into service - it's good art, and shouldn't be wasted.

 

[ShotJon]

I would be happiest with Field Uniform coming back.