Corporations Overhaul

Yeah, listing things is fine, you don't actually need approval for that (but you should post everything for approval anyways, just so you can be told you don't need approval).

There's a huge list of rules attached to that list though, and it looks like those rules are aimed at letting some players de-cannonize the stuff of other players. This will almost certainly be used to try and de-cannonize stuff just because you used a corporations' gun somewhere in your RP and someone else didn't like it because that's exactly how people have tried to use these rules in the past.

Perhaps a better way would be for each corporation manager to be able to appeal to their FM rather than giving them a direct path to canon issues.

Edit: I've removed the Corporate Rights section, @Wes.

Corporations make stuff though.

Individual items sold on the open market should just be out there for anyone to use. If you can buy it in a store somewhere then its very reasonably that the product has made its way around. I don't think any FM appeals would even be needed here, nor do I think a manager for a faction should be able to tell someone not to use something that is openly for sale.

Stuff that is restricted for whatever reason is a different ballgame. But those kinds of items along with corporate characters, NPCs, etc, are all covered under player and faction rules so we're good there. Corporate Managers (CMs?) Don't really need to appeal to anyone here, You shouldn't be blowing up an Akemi's without talking to Ame first. This would be true even if you were just talking about blowing up Akemi himself and he didn't have a corporation.

This also means the days where I can just throw Funky Taco or one of my Awesome Corp vending machines into the RP is gone, since I'll have to go check with someone before I use it.


What I do see is opening a lot more paths to declaring stuff non-cannon, each section of the new rules seems to end in a path to non-cannon-ness. I also see what used to be NPC corps getting managers now that can either maintain the norm or tell people to stop using their stuff which means a smaller pool of cool NPC stuff to pull from. I sitting here going, "Here comes another 4th Elysian / Howard Station / Vice / etc. incident where I have to lawyer up to keep my stuff running in RP. Frost is really the only player we've had problems with in this regard, so seeing him put in more rules to back up the 'your stuff is non-cannon now' declarations is not something I'm happy about seeing.

ENOUGH

I'm getting very sick and tired of the constant attacks against Frost, a member of our community and someone who is TRYING to help. He made us an article that provides a list of all of the current corporations in the settings, both those run by players and those run by NPC's. This is something that we needed since we have had people ask in the past what kind of corporation's exist and where they are, this helps to answer that question.

So enough is enough. Wes asked for that stuff to be removed and Frost has done so, so STOP acting like it still exists when it doesn't. Focus on the article at hand, what is currently on it, not on personal attacks. Otherwise, if you can't make a post without resorting to personal attacks and character assassination then please do not post at all because you are doing nothing to contribute to this discussion or even helping to make this article better.

Regardless, please read this article relating to faction managers: Faction Managers Take a VERY good look at Number 2, Section C-II, and then look at Letter D.

Number 2, Section C-II relates to businesses. Corporations fall under businesses, both NPC and PC, you know what that means? It means that FM's can decide for themselves whether a corporation is being properly roleplayed in the setting, and are also allowed to authorize whether they can be used by others.

Example: If someone were to take S.A.M. (the primary ship and weapons building arm of the Neshaten) and make a claim in roleplay by their character that they sold them arms and ships, I could raise a concern about that because - as the creator of that corporation, and the owner of the faction and the person who runs that corporation, I'd know for a fact that such a thing wouldn't happen, which means that - with the below being mentioned - I could have that declared as NON-CANON since it violates the established canon of the corporation and it's lore.

Number 2, Letter D relates to the unauthorized use of faction assets. Corporations, when created under a faction, are considered faction assets(if not, then anyone can use any ships and technology; which also includes the products they make (ships, technology, etc) that line right now means that if an FM feels that the assets are not being portrayed correctly or are being used in a malicious manner, they can request that the threads be made non-canon.

Example: Say a player in another faction (I'll use Yamatai as an example given how well known they are, but also, because I know Wes wouldn't let this happen) was to suddenly pull out a weapon used by the Neshaten and then fire it at an enemy, but that shouldn't be possible since weapons trading doesn't exist between the two factions (and using the excuse that it was found on a battlefield wouldn't work, as Neshaten weaponry are DNA locked and thus can't be used by anyone but the registered user and attempting to override that lock without the proper codes will result in a boom) if I were to see this I'd be able to tell Wes about it, and request that that be changed or made non-canon. Or, if it were to remain canon, I'd inform him that the unregistered user would lose their arm because the weapon would - in fact - EXPLODE when the trigger is pulled.

Example 2: If someone were to take the Ke-V6-2A or the GP-12 and roleplay them in a completely different faction *without* permission then that can be viewed as a violation of the faction rights Number 2, Letter D.

So, what am I getting at? In short, Frost didn't really need to put up any kind of rules and such, as that was already covered in the faction rights section of the Faction article under businesses.

Now that I've explained this, let's get back to trying to HELP @FrostJaeger with making this article better and not attacking him for doing this forum and community a welcome service. Yes, I understand you have issues with him, but keep those bloody issues private and between yourselves and don't have it splash out onto the public forums, all it does is create drama and problems and both are not needed ESPECIALLY in this forum.

Wes said:

They look fine as-is. You don't need an FM's approval to simply list things that already exist. You would need Zack's permission if you were adding something new, though.

I'm not sure we really need to have rights for corporations...I would like more feedback from the greater SARP community on that part.

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I'm a bit behind on where we are, but I do think corporations should have rights TO A DEGREE. These rights are currently assumed rights but can technically exist with ease within the current setting. In practice, I've mediated and worked with Soresu before to ensure Zen/the Syndicate maintained rights. In particular, the only time issues brewed was when the faction elements were challenged by proposed changes that necessitated the FM stepping in.

CMs, to me, are a role that doesn't NEED definitive power but should have protection from other factions buying their things. As the owner of Ken-TEC, I know there's really no group it'd refuse sale to. But then you got Akemi who has fickle tastes between who gets worked with. But these CM rights are very easy to distinguish when they're being used for personal reasons and IC, logical ones.

Just my two cents from working with others and making my own corporation.

I'm currently deliberating with Kai regarding Origin Industries, but I'll let you guys know what we decide on.

I have decided to find that statement hilarious.

Given that there's been some concern from a few different community members, I'd suggest removing Corporation Manager rights pertaining to decanonization and leave that sort of thing to Setting Managers.

I'd also say that CM permission shouldn't be required for salvaging or non RP acquisition, since that could prove to be a hassle or a source of conflict in the future.

However, I'd think that at least it should be required to notify CMs before using their assets.

I can imagine a lot of corporation owners would be fine with having some sort of delegated rights from their FM rather than implicit rights themselves, as the FM has final say since corporations are their assets. Begs the question what to do about Independent companies but I guess an easy way to do that would be related to the location of their HQ determining which FM delegates their powers or who the main faction they trade with is?

With decanonisation I would tentatively agree that such things should be left to higher powers than CMs, since people sometimes get that power-hungry idea of how their company should be which is pretty toxic and we don't want those sorts of decanonisation issues happening. Having CMs appeal to their FM and it's up to them whether to proceed with their issue would probably be the best.

Of course, with using other people's tech without permission, it's best to be cordial than assume things. If something might raise issue, maybe it's best to ask, use something else or make what you need yourself.

Edit:
IIS should be classed as a Yamataian company by the by, they're Independent from the government and things but they get almost all their trade from Yamatai.

Okay there are a few things happening in this thread I'd like to address. Cause this is ridiculous.

First off, @FrostJaeger you need to take down this submission and FINISH it before you ask people for FM approval considering when I approved it there were no Cooperation rights, (I just checked the time stamps on edits to make sure I'm not going crazy) the fact that you added some after approval is messed up.

@Zack stop complaining about every little thing. Origin industries used to have -faction- level rights at one point, and nothing went wrong because it only related to things pertaining to the company. They can't go around making entire plots non canon, the most a cooperation would be able to do is force a plot to remove mentions of their company and things would turn 'Generic Brand'. We don't have trademarks for tech on the site as it is, so you can't really stop a player from using something similar to something a company made, but from a 'nameless company'. That's probably part of the reason why in the first place.

Players could never control a company they didn't own unless it was an NPC company, so you could never use a company's resources without their permission either. You could only use things you could buy on the market. And the corp could always chime in and say "It makes absolutly no sense that this alien species has our tech when we've never been to a planet they've been to."

You guys freak out too much when you hear "Right to decanonize" never has that meant that someone could just decanonize anything they want, it's always been something that can be challenged that the SM (Wes) can overturn if it makes no sense. So no people can't decanonize things willy nilly, because you can just call in the SM or someone Wes approces of to look it over and make sure it makes sense.

I don’t mean to be rude, @Syaoran, but what are you referring to?

I created this thread at 4:04 PM EST according to the post’s timestamp, and based upon the timestamps in the article’s version log - which I know for a fact are three hours behind EST - this version from 1:49 PM EST (which contains a Corporate Rights section) was the one that was current at the time of the aforementioned thread creation.

I already let Frost know this privately when the thread was locked, but it's probably best if I commit it to record. Kinda also doubles as a study on my philosophy regarding the whole "managers" thing, too, if anyone is interested in that angle.

Ametheliana said:

raz co-owns Akemi's.

...

Saiga Psychogenetics Research Laboratories is not managed by Wes but by raz.

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Thank you for the concern, but I'm not too worried about this. SPLabs is owned by the Saiga Clan, much like KZ is owned by the Ketsurui Clan. Only I play Saiga Clan characters, including the Daimyo/CEO. As the FM of Yamatai, Wes can ultimately do what he wants, but probably isn't deeply familiar enough to help people do anything with them. While I have been busy with life developments that happened during my little vacation from SARP, I can and will answer PMs and stuff if my username is listed with the corporation.

As an aside: A modernization of Saiga stuff is about 3/4 done with art but I haven't touched it in months. Soon™

As for Akemi's, Ame can handle all of that just fine and I don't really care about ever being listed with it. I'm just a backup player there because Amaryllis was my buddy and asked it of me; I've never felt the motivation to put my visions of the character to words.

tl;dr: Nobody's gotta stress about SARP.

I might've read the time stamps wrong then but the point still holds true about you need to finish a submission before asking for approval. That includes sorting out and finalizing rules and layout so that people can yay or nay it all at once. (For the record techncially these fules should've been handled -separately- from the creation of the listing. So they don't get in the way of each other like they are now.)

Syaoran said:

I might've read the time stamps wrong then but the point still holds true about you need to finish a submission before asking for approval. That includes sorting out and finalizing rules and layout so that people can yay or nay it all at once. (For the record techncially these fules should've been handled -separately- from the creation of the listing. So they don't get in the way of each other like they are now.)

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I agree that the rights stuff should be separate. I'm open to the idea of corporate rights to a degree (as stated) but feel that it really shouldn't be tacked onto this. A section can be appended with a link to the rights article if/when it gets made and approved.

Keep things separate so the list manner of the article is straightforward and really not up for arguing/non-relevant topics.

I might've read the time stamps wrong then but the point still holds true about you need to finish a submission before asking for approval.

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That may be your opinion, but IIRC SARP's rules allow unfinished submissions to be submitted, and they also allow changes to be made based on community feedback in the submission thread.

After reading all of the post so far, for clarification the way it works now or should work is that "corporation manager" is not an officially recognized title or status on SARP and all corporations exist in cooperation with their parent faction. If they have any issues it's the FM who can take care of it. In general FMs allow authors/creators of corps to act on their behalf in matters related to that corp.

Example: Geshrinari Shipyards is a Yamataian corporation. If there's some dispute over Geshrinari stuff people could come to me since I'm the FM of Yamatai. However, Nashoba is the current custodian of Geshrinari and I will generally just refer Geshrinari issues to him since he's the expert. Replace this with your faction and corporations and you can see how it works. In other words corporation makers get their power via cooperating with their FM.

In real life corporations are basically always under nations. In SARP, it's possible for corporations to move to unoccupied areas of space to escape the law and this is one of the matters I'd like to address in the International Relations Conference. I'd like to see all corporations have a parent nation.

A corporation that claims to be unanswerable to a nation and its laws is basically just a cartel faction.

Wes said:

A corporation that claims to be unanswerable to a nation and its laws is basically just a cartel faction.

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Based on this and what you said about wanting every corp to have a parent faction, when I was talking to you in pm earlier about moving to a planet by themselves could they stay associated with uso in that situation to avoid becoming a cartel?

The corporation generally should just follow whatever laws of the nation it was formed within. When in doubt, consult the relevant FM. If it's an USO corp, ask Zack about how claiming a new planet works in USO.

Wes said:

ask Zack about how claiming a new planet works in USO.

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Shoot everyone who disagrees with you.

Honestly, as long as certain people don't try seizing Origin with this or anything else, I don't think we'll have any problems. As the person in charge of it though, Frost will have to properly list me on the article. It's not like I'm out of reach or unwilling to work with people.