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Tech Wars 101: The Issue and Discussion

I don't think submissions need to be stopped, but the best solution is also likely the most difficult thing to do. Get more submission checkers, make the submission process less of a checklist with more freedom to 'smell test' things, and require multiple checkers to approve anything. Maybe require more the larger or more 'problematic' the submission. I'd also probably suggest that it take an equal number of outside vetoes to deny something, so if person X always submits to A & B who rubber stamp everything without due process, C & D can intervene and put a halt to it. If something is troublesome enough to need every approver weighing in and voting to break a deadlock, well, it probably needed everyone looking at it in the first place.

But this is definitely the hardest way to do things, since it requires more volunteers doing more work and us/Wes putting more trust in more mods.

One of the things that led to the fall of Rome was the abuse of the Tribune's Veto.

The moment someone, anyone, starts using their Veto frivolously, that's the moment that the system you suggest fails. Right now, to be fair, there are some people who don't trust Reviewer A, and who expect A to veto everything they submit based on bias. Similarly, Reviewer B also has strong apparent bias. If Reviewer A and B are both biased, the NTSE grinds to a screeching halt.

The system we have right now isn't just some skeletal rule system with strings and wires; what we're really talking about is the attitude of the reviewers, which we are dissatisfied with, for allowing this tech war to continue. Honestly, I think that the NTSE would be much improved if the playerbase's involvement with it was more formal - an idea I've heard before and that I do not in any way disagree with would be restricting the issue to the tech mods, the reviewer, and the FM or GM who would be using the equipment. I really do think the peanut gallery needs formally silenced. I think that there should be a garentee of professionalism within the NTSE.

"How did I get this magic sword? Oh, Bob GMed me through this stand-alone module after last session. We RPed the whole thing out, it was a blast! Everything's documented on my character sheet here, we even took some notes. Where did Bob get his magic axe? Well, I GMed him through this stand-alone module after last session..."

...

It's Person A saying, 'I really wish I had a magic sword' followed by Person B saying, 'Well this dungeon I just created has a magic sword in it, what a coincidence!' and Person C is like 'Hey, while you're here, can you throw in like a hundred minions for us to capture? I have this cave I really need mined and I can't just create people out of nowhere, but if you're already GMing...' And the next time these three players bump into the greater meta-plot going on with the other dozens of people playing the same game and system as them, they're flying around on winged sharks with laser rifles.

I actually waited a while to think this over before addressing it, and so I've cherry picked the quote (it's back on 3, can click to return to it).

So I want to talk about magic swords here, because that's really what we're arguing over, in the end; elements of a story, or roleplay, that are passingly important to the stories that we are writing. If there's any cardinal sin that I see being put forward here, it's that tech exists to empower a faction. That is, in my mind, an incorrect and dangerous way of thinking; the technology exists to empower the story of that faction. There should be a plot element to it, even if it's just the Yamataian AMES's ability to float around in space without an oxygen pack.

Everything we play with right now is basically a magical sword or a piece of armor.

So I don't actually see the problem with your second suggestion's theory of operation - but you tagged something else onto it that I want to address and that I feel really needs addressed. Cross contamination. You seem to assume that cross-pollination is an issue, and I am skeptical of that implication. That's why I have spoken in this thread before about the scope of a technology.

If a GM gives a player a magic sword (for instance) that's super overpowered and lol and amazingsauce, whether or not that's run through the NTSE, it's the GM's discretion to do so. As an excellent and recent example, there are rules on the wiki for the use of psionics, and even lesser forms of magic and some of those abilities exceed what any character would be approved with on the website, ever. In this article, it specifically states that the GM may ONLY empower those characters in a limited fashion, essential to the progression of the plot itself.

In other words - the big, overpowered toys should stay within the plots themselves. One would not expect the protagonists of one plot to suddenly become the protagonists of another plot. You do not leave Faerun for a Conan campaign, expecting Set to be the same god. However possible this is, I do not often see this happen; often characters are made specifically for one plot, and stay in that plot for their entire run time, with some notable exceptions where characters have switched ships or even allegiances.

At that point, it's incumbent on the subsequent GM to take a look at the character they're getting - as we already do - and determine whether that character is carrying an ability or a piece of technology beyond its scope. That's why we approve the characters in our plots now, because only we GMs actually know how high, low, or varied our tech and power preferences are. Example: Some GMs play Nekovalkyrja as almost human. Other GMs play Nekovalkyrja as heartless kill machines. Both are true and can be backed up, either by relating Nekovalkyrja to each other, or by looking at their lift and carry weights in the Wiki. However, if a player joins GM A's plot expecting it to be like GM B's plot, that's where the actual problem rests.

So essentially the problem comes when you have someone specifically wanting to abuse the system, and as bloody as it has been, I've not seen someone attempt this and escape unscathed. Wes is not an idiot, and neither are most of the GMs here stupid or blind.

Technology or resource development through roleplay, in my opinion, is better for the website than tech development through a complicated system of reviewers, or a biased system of votes, or a simple freeze on tech submissions. As long as logs are kept, and as long as the scope of the technology (its impact on the setting itself) is minimal, I don't see why we would have to submit minor technologies to the point where people submit backpacks or boots. However, if a submission is likely to affect the greater setting - for instance, a new faction or a new type of warp engine or a new Death Doom Device - then yes, it should probably be submitted.
But in the end, we are here to have fun through roleplay. Some people enjoy faction building, and that's fine, but ultimately the outcome of wars or inter-faction struggles is pre-determined by the FMs and GMs who wish to engage in that sort of struggle rather than the actual technological capabilities of that faction. Essentially, the game is rigged already, and creating tech for tech's sake is just spinning your wheels off into infinity for no purpose.
 
Pun-Pun is the reason patches and updates exist. It is not an intended part of DnD, and it was fixed in later versions.

Which is to say here: If there is a problem with the rules, then fix the rules.

But someone will just make Pun-Pun 2.0 and 3.0 and so on. Just recently I was playing Pathfinder, which is basically the 'patched' version of that same system with many more years of refinement, and they had just recently added an official magical item that completely broke the game. And, of course, had to be 'patched' and edited officially, because some players were abusing it and wouldn't listen when their GM just said 'no'.

The answer isn't more rules There will always be ways to break, bend, fold, spindle and mutilate the rules. That's why Rule Zero in every DMG, every system and every RP is always:

"If the rules aren't working or aren't fun, then ignore the rules."

With the corollary:

"The GM makes the rules; don't argue with the GM."
 
I agree with Gallant completely.

At this point people have pointed out what they feel are problems, so I'd ask that if you've already made a couple posts in this thread, please post suggestions/solutions that you think would "fix" the issues that were brought up. Don't keep harping on the problems.
 
Ultimately, unless an FM gives permission, a faction cannot BTFO of another faction, even if they have overwhelming firepower. That's just how it works. Yes, it's all a concern, and I've already pointed out how you can help the NTSE address these concerns, but keep in mind that factions won't fall just because one has better tech than another in this day and age.

Its you, the players, that empower a faction. Not the fast ships, the strongest shields, or the biggest guns. It's you guys.
 
Yes, I don't disagree with that, but in your example you mention that the players wouldn't listen to the GM.

Here, that isn't actually an issue that exists. Players who do not agree with their GMs leave those GMs, or, alternatively, are removed from the plots that they disrupt. That is not particularly broken at this point in time.

What I feel to be broken is that I am constantly hearing grumbling about how people are destroying the NTSE submissions of people that they don't like, and this needs to be stopped, pronto, with great deliberateness. The NTSE mods need the power to silence the peanut gallery, and Wes has already had to do it for them, once.
 
My only real suggestion is the whole 'more oversight' thing I already said. Not just in pure submissions, but also keeping these RP-echo-chambers from getting out of control. Where people fast-track things into canon off in their private corner before unleashing it into the plot at large.
 
I agree with Gallant completely.

At this point people have pointed out what they feel are problems, so I'd ask that if you've already made a couple posts in this thread, please post suggestions/solutions that you think would "fix" the issues that were brought up. Don't keep harping on the problems.
Sadly all suggestions I pitched have been tried before. All of them have somewhat failed, or would be too complex to be feasible. I talked with Frostjager privately on a few ideas (mixed in with Elysia talk but oh well) and he, being the more knowledgeable one, pointed out essentially, "This idea failed. Here's where it failed. Here's how it failed."
 
Yes, Gallant's got a point. @Wes - would it be unreasonable to give Mods power to stop players from posting in a thread if they feel the input is no longer constructive? I think Reynolds does have a point as well, but that's why I never approve things quickly, and even give a time period before approval regarding more controversial items.
 
I agree with Gallant completely.

At this point people have pointed out what they feel are problems, so I'd ask that if you've already made a couple posts in this thread, please post suggestions/solutions that you think would "fix" the issues that were brought up. Don't keep harping on the problems.
Was waiting for this. There are so many things that we could go around talking about as to ways to help. People have brought up many things, that all deserve looking at, but this topic was made for a key problem, and all these other problems, while things in their own right, might be mitigated and not need a 'solution' if we fix the key problem. Yes some of them will still need a solution, but I think it'll be easier to come up with a solution when the root problem is fixed.

So what is the root problem? I think the root of most of the discussion is Technology Progression so let's fix the issues with lack of regulations on technology progression. What we need to do is have a sit down, and figure out where the technology on the site is right now on the average, create a page or something like the 'industry standard' and allow for deviations below it or above it slightly (depending on how canonically advanced the piece in question should be.) Then after that, the NTSE and Setting Managers (Possibly FMs as well, but that might be too many cooks in the kitchen) should sit down and come up with guidelines for when players should try to push the industry standard up, and and how quickly, and what is required in an RP capacity to create something that raises the standard.

Again, there are other issues, but I think solutions for those wont become apparent until the above is handled, and that's how I think would be a good way to handle it.
 
Yes, Gallant's got a point. @Wes - would it be unreasonable to give Mods power to stop players from posting in a thread if they feel the input is no longer constructive? I think Reynolds does have a point as well, but that's why I never approve things quickly, and even give a time period before approval regarding more controversial items.
So we're now silencing complaints? This reeks of abuse if the site can't post just because they disagree with someone.

To clarify: I've been called not constructive but then echoed and said person wasn't silenced or ignored. This is not the answer.
 
It's not so black and white - sometimes, things do get out of hand and it's no longer proper criticism @Legix . Wes himself had to step in and do so personally.
Because people turn constructive around and declare it attacks or simple bias.

Just like what happened earlier in this thread.
 
Because people turn constructive around and declare it attacks or simple bias.

Just like what happened earlier in this thread.
Well Legix while that's true, that's more a matter of defining what is and isn't constructive and giving some guide lines for that. It would be great if mods could indeed silence nonconstructive people, as long as there was some accountability on their part if they abused the power.
 
Alright I'm not sure why this continues to enter a rut but I'm not going to deal with it anymore... Not when I'm still so new. Sorry Wes for not proposing any solutions like you asked, but I've got to pull out of this...
 
I've definitely seen 'slowing down the approval process' being cast as 'not constructive', as if the best thing to do is to get things approved as fast as possible. When a submitter doesn't think that their submission can be improved (or who doesn't know how to do it), they'll be upset by anyone who attempts to encourage them to do just that. The solution to that is to reinforce that the NTSE staff do have the power to say no, that their job isn't to approve submissions, it's to review them and criticize them. How good someone is at the job should be measured by the quality of the articles they approve, not the quantity.

Easier said than done if they're the only ones with the authority to judge the quality of the articles, I think that's where most of the issue is. If there's more NTSE staff, then it becomes a bit harder to accuse them of bias, but if we can't trust them we can't have an NTSE. It needs to be ironed in that their job is to review submissions and describe how to improve them, not to approve them 'so that plots can move on'.
 
I do agree Navian. Fast approvals do not mean good ones. In truth, I always feel a little uncomfortable when I see a submission get submitted, reviewed, and approved in a very short span of time, like, within the same half hour.
 
Easier said than done if they're the only ones with the authority to judge the quality of the articles, I think that's where most of the issue is.
More community members used to comment on basically every submission and give input. Sure, the review team has the power to approve/reject, but wider community involvement in every submission used to be the norm.

Can't really say why it's decreased, though it probably has something to do with the stress that's often involved in discussions lately. But it'd be great to see the trend reversed and get the community back to helping each other out in a friendly way.
 
Was waiting for this. There are so many things that we could go around talking about as to ways to help. People have brought up many things, that all deserve looking at, but this topic was made for a key problem, and all these other problems, while things in their own right, might be mitigated and not need a 'solution' if we fix the key problem. Yes some of them will still need a solution, but I think it'll be easier to come up with a solution when the root problem is fixed.

So what is the root problem? I think the root of most of the discussion is Technology Progression so let's fix the issues with lack of regulations on technology progression. What we need to do is have a sit down, and figure out where the technology on the site is right now on the average, create a page or something like the 'industry standard' and allow for deviations below it or above it slightly (depending on how canonically advanced the piece in question should be.) Then after that, the NTSE and Setting Managers (Possibly FMs as well, but that might be too many cooks in the kitchen) should sit down and come up with guidelines for when players should try to push the industry standard up, and and how quickly, and what is required in an RP capacity to create something that raises the standard.

Again, there are other issues, but I think solutions for those wont become apparent until the above is handled, and that's how I think would be a good way to handle it.
It's been brought to my attention that some people might've misunderstood this. When I'm talking about making an 'industry standard' page, I'm talking about for things not covered by the DR rules, things like sensor range and strength, or communication range. Things that don't directly effect 'damage' or 'speed' but that can still make a ship clearly superior.
 
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