Tech Wars 101: The Issue and Discussion

[Zack]

This is what I wanted in a new DR system, and it can still be patched into DvR3. We don't even need that fancy of a page just some basic values for high tech sensor range, and normal (civllian grade?) Sensor range.

Other small tweaks can be added in for stuff like weapon speed, how many shuttles a ship can carry, and FTL drive recharge time.

 

[Syaoran]

This should be separated from the DR page, because these are more obscure things, that aren't about a game mechanic, as opposed to a "try not to go over this to keep the setting in check." So for instance sensor range. If you have a "High tech limit" set. No matter how the sensors are designed, that would be the limit, unless you get SM approval and have a good reason for making it above the industry restrictions. Like "This is the badguy super ship, from an NPC faction that will blow up in the end" (Not saying that will be enough reason, just listing something off the top of my head that might work)

 

[Zack]

A simple 'this is what is expected' page. I know there are a few people who would find it super useful.

I'll try and get a WiP version up when I get home tonight.

 

[Syaoran]

Well for now it's gonna be best just to compile a list of 'averages' for all notable types of technology. That's more important than getting the page layout

 

[Wes]

What I feel to be broken is that I am constantly hearing grumbling about how people are destroying the NTSE submissions of people that they don't like, and this needs to be stopped, pronto, with great deliberateness. The NTSE mods need the power to silence the peanut gallery, and Wes has already had to do it for them, once.

Keep in mind that the reason player rights give everyone a voice in setting submissions is specifically so they can protest things they do not like from becoming official parts of the shared universe.

 

[Gallant]

Keep in mind that the reason player rights give everyone a voice in setting submissions is specifically so they can protest things they do not like from becoming official parts of the shared universe.

If you don't like the technology, protest the technology, but I'm seeing the same people arguing against the same people enough that I'm leery of whether the technology itself is the target.

Late Addition: It's for this reason I suggest giving the NTSE mods the situational authority to shut down criticism they believe is non-constructive.

 

[Arieg]

So I'm going to lay down some data I computed a while ago based on the number of solar masses (or rather how little solar mass) Jupiter is compared to its hillsphere or gravitational influence. Which as you all know the hillsphere of a star system is the boundary at which FTL works or doesn't work.

If my numbers are right the diameter of the hillsphere of one solar mass is 370 astronomical units, it would take a starship 4.73 days moving at .45C to cross the solar system (an average of 18.44 minutes per astronomical unit). Thats a freaking huge battlespace and thats what I think about when I make tech, overall it means any kind of combat at range can take many hours to days (a lot like legend of galactic heroes!) so take that into consideration when you read my tech, there is indeed a method to my madness and thats the numbers above.

 

[Syaoran]

So I'm going to lay down some data I computed a while ago based on the number of solar masses (or rather how little solar mass) Jupiter is compared to its hillsphere or gravitational influence. Which as you all know the hillsphere of a star system is the boundary at which FTL works or doesn't work.

If my numbers are right the diameter of the hillsphere of one solar mass is 370 astronomical units, it would take a starship 4.73 days moving at .45C to cross the solar system (an average of 18.44 minutes per astronomical unit). Thats a freaking huge battlespace and thats what I think about when I make tech, overall it means any kind of combat at range can take many hours to days (a lot like legend of galactic heroes!) so take that into consideration when you read my tech, there is indeed a method to my madness and thats the numbers above.

That doesn't even touch on the points at hand. But to answer you. It is very unlikely that -combat- will take place at that distance. Hitting is impossible unless you're using FTL attacks, which I don't think this setting has, you only need to move a few kilometers to dodge, but it's going to take days to hit. Even if you don't notice it until a day before it'll hit you still have plenty of time to dodge. Attacking from a range that'll take more than minutes to hit is not 'combat' that is when you get into 'strategic' weaponry that becomes about the set up into using it.

Edit: I realized just after hitting enter, there wont be FTL attacks happening because you're in a hillsphere in the first place and the setting doesn't really allow FTL in hillspheres if I recall.

 

[Arieg]

Missiles and torpedoes on the other hand can reach those distances, or at least a decent fraction of them. Mine are probably the most balanced since they can't cross the solar system to strike targets lurking on the other side. A lot of SARP systems in the same area however can.

 

[Syaoran]

Missiles and torpedoes on the other hand can reach those distances, or at least a decent fraction of them. Mine are probably the most balanced since they can't cross the solar system to strike targets lurking on the other side. A lot of SARP systems in the same area however can.

It's not the distances, it's the -time-. Theoretically just about anything in the setting could reach the distance. But if it takes days to hit, it's not really a threat to anything that can move.

 

[Zack]

As per word of god (Wes) hill spheres aren't what is blocking FTL.

My understanding is that there is a nebulously defined 'About an hour worth of travel time' sphere around stars that you can't FTL into or out of.

Exact numbers have not been given aside from 'about an hour'

 

[Arieg]

Thats the thing, torpedoes and missiles have guidance systems hence why they don't have the hard three light second limit. I imagine combat beyond sun to mars distance would basically be a chess game of maneuvering, using astronomical bodies, stealth, and firing volleys of guided ordinance. Especially due to the amount of time it takes to come in from the edge of the system.

 

[Arieg]

As per word of god (Wes) hill spheres aren't what is blocking FTL.

My understanding is that there is a nebulously defined 'About an hour worth of travel time' sphere around stars that you can't FTL into or out of.

Exact numbers have not been given aside from 'about an hour'

I've always been told hillsphere.

 

[Zack]

It was that way, but no one followed that.

We eventually brought up just how big a hill sphere was for a star and how small it was for a planet. This is what led to the current ruling.

 

[Syaoran]

Thats the thing, torpedoes and missiles have guidance systems hence why they don't have the hard three light second limit. I imagine combat beyond sun to mars distance would basically be a chess game of maneuvering, using astronomical bodies, stealth, and firing volleys of guided ordinance. Especially due to the amount of time it takes to come in from the edge of the system.

You really aren't listening. At the distance of days to hit, whether or not they can reach that distance is entirely irrelevant. Even if your sensors are single digits of AU, you have -minutes- before it hits after you detect it. with double digits you have -hours-. With advanced AIs for targeting, firing from that distance makes it almost impossible to hit because the target has plenty of time to respond.

 

[Arieg]

You really aren't listening. At the distance of days to hit, whether or not they can reach that distance is entirely irrelevant. Even if your sensors are single digits of AU, you have -minutes- before it hits after you detect it. with double digits you have -hours-. With advanced AIs for targeting, firing from that distance makes it almost impossible to hit because the target has plenty of time to respond.

Its called stand off range paired with deceptive maneuvering, your going to have plenty of warning sure but they have guidance systems and can chase you down.

 

[Syaoran]

Its called stand off range paired with deceptive maneuvering, your going to have plenty of warning sure but they have guidance systems and can chase you down.

Actually no the guidance systems likely can't. Because you're not taking into account the delay of received information. When you fire, let's assume from 2 light days away. And your missile moves at half C. You're firing at a 2 day old image because of the information had to travel back to you, and it's going to take 4 days to get to -that- spot. Now the missile can update it's course as it flies, but the missile would have much less in the way of detection than the ship itself, but it would hardly matter, because when you fire the missile it's sensors would kick in just then. So it wont even know if your target was still moving, unless you feed it the information constantly as it flies, because you're days behind. However as it gets further from you you have to take longer to send the data to it, so that 2 day old information becomes even older. By time the missile is close enough on its own, the target is likely not remotely where it started, and would have long since detected the missile or just plain not been in the system anymore.

Now that becomes irrelevant when you think about the fact that there are subspace communication and detection systems. But that is a disadvantage for the missile. Because that means sensors are moving -way- faster than the missile and since since light speed weapons are very common in the setting, shooting the missile down with a calculated shot is easy, because you have a projectile faster than it and the ability to get instantly up to date info on it. (Ignoring the fact that again, the ship at that range likely wouldn't be sitting around just chilling, it'd be in motion)

This is why strategic weapons aren't used against mobile targets, because the time to deploy it, a mobile target is just too hard to hit.

Edit: Another note, I might be wrong, because I only did a simple search, but the subspace systems are mostly communication and basic detection anyway. Not targeting systems.

 

[Arieg]

First and foremost there are FTL capable sensor systems on SARP whos data lag only kicks in at certain extreme distances, for example in the nose of my missile systems is a AESA radar antenna capable of transmitting and receiving FTL signals. There are other exotic systems and detection methods that run along those lines as well either as passive receivers tracking particles and waves that don't act within Einstein's limitations that are usually generated by various exotic means that are almost always man made. As far as keeping the missile on track damn near everyone has FTL capable communications, which means even if the missile can't see you or can't quite make you out the ship (Yamatai's case your dead to rights often at the light year range) can and continue to issue course corrections. So being able to see, track, launch on, guide on, and hit you isn't an issue. Theres going to be some time lag at the greater distances but thats just part of the game.

As far as intercepting the weapon it can be done but not with gun systems outside of three light seconds because everyone and their mother uses deceptive maneuvering routines in their weapon systems to deal with point defense. And trying to hit something actively manuevering beyond three light seconds without a guided munition of your own (I'm about the only producer of long range missiles atm) will be something akin to hitting a penny at a mile in a tornado. If you've been launched on you can either run away or turn in and prepare to deal with the threat.

 

[Syaoran]

Firstly your first paragraph is literally irrelevant, you didn't read my entire post before you wrote it, so I'm literally ignoring it. Now, you say deceptive maneuvers, yes that's a thing, but that's why I said a calculated shot. There is no such thing as 'true' randomness and we're working with quantum computers, they could decipher the algorithm used and figure out the missiles location and fire directly on it. Barring that they could at least get a general area and fire several shots into there and the likely hood of hitting is high. There is a reason in sci-fi you don't often see missiles fired as an opening attack with the actual intent to hit. Because with shields and near quantum computing it's almost impossible to hit, unless the other ship is distracted, malfunctioning or incompetent. You disable shields and point defense on one side, -then- you fire your torpedoes/missiles, and even then likely from a range that the opposing ship wouldn't be moving at full speed anyway because they'd just over shoot you due to close proximity.

 

[Arieg]

Unfortunately due to the way SARP weapon systems work... gun systems aren't effectively beyond 3 light seconds period, but even more so against an moving maneuvering target. Even with quantum computing the distances and speed make it insanely difficult. So until it gets into that magic three light second bubble shooting at it is moot.