The Great ST Debate

[Fred]

Speaking of not using it... Kotori still hasn't gone to the Sakura's medbay to get one.

I see the ST recording thing as something the ship's captain orders to get done. It's like "Okay, make a save point because what's coming is going to be tough."

If it's done in most computer/console RPGs, it shouldn't be such a big deal, really >_>

I mean, it's like a seatbelt! Seatbelts are cool ^_^

 

[AoK]

I'm going to throw my 2 cents out there and agree with Tom on this. It has long been an issue with me, (As wes can tell you), that I am against this whole system because of the fact that people can just run out into a battle without a care, because they will be revived.

Give you an example? Alright then.

Yuuko being "killed" on the first Fenyar. A To'Yaree comes up behind her and nearly twists her head off. She is "Dead", but wait, NO! She is ST backed up and therefore in the very next post as the ship flew off into space, she is back at her post, good as new.


I am tired of this safety net being laid out underneath every character. I think that no matter who you are, if you die, you run the risk of not coming back, and this INCLUDES the major players, (Yui, Hanako, Henry) This sentiment that says "Don't worry about dying, because if you do, you can always come back with no repercussions at all" is ruining the RP as a whole. It's like in World of Warcraft. If you die, and don't want to run all the way back to your corpse, you can just revive yourself right next to a city and forget all about that battle.

It ruins the RP when you never have to worry about repercussions for your actions. There is no more strategy involved to investigating derelict ships, planets, or whatnot, because if you die, you just "Respawn" back at your base, safe and sound. I am saying that the ST technology should be removed from the RP as part of the "Toning down" of the fleets and populations. Either that, or have it be REALLY dangerous to bring someone back. Like a 1 in 100 chance to bring them back at all, and that includes with mental problems. That way, it will bring back the "I really can't afford to die" mentality, instead of this carebear 'don't worry, we'll just respawn you back on the ship if things get hard' thinking.

 

[Jadg Wolf]

I never noticed it being used much before, but then again, there wasn't a whole lot of combat and I didn't usually read the RPs. I thought it was stupid at first, but I stopped caring for a while. But I always thought when Wes was RPing (writing a story, really) Yui vs. Eve on Ayenee, having Yui just "respawn" was sort of foolish.

If there was more death going on at the beginning, I might have thought the ST issue more urgent. At the start, I don't really remember a lot of people dying, but I'm not completely sure. There were eventually a few people who died and never came back, though.

But how would you remove the technology? It's sort of important. I don't know, maybe we could go back to avatars for switching bodies or something like that. Opinion: I don't "hate" it, but I don't like it, either.

 

[Cora]

What Wes told me about Yui was that she is directly linked to PATHANON. When she dies, IF she can die with her perfect skill list, she will automatically respawn right where she died. Just. Like. That. *snaps fingers for effect*

I'm also againt the Soul Savior system. This is a supposed serious Military Role Playing universe. The very fact soldiers can't die unless they take a headshot without a backup, which are mandatory, makes the whole serious military life and throws it right out a two story window.

 

[Rob]

Backups are, again, actually only mandatory for rankers. If you're just a common grunt you can buy backups, but they aren't supplied free until you actually prove that bringing you back is a worthwhile cause.

 

[Tom]

Backups are, again, actually only mandatory for rankers. If you're just a common grunt you can buy backups, but they aren't supplied free until you actually prove that bringing you back is a worthwhile cause.

My first post:

I don't buy the "protection through exclusivityâ€

 

[Turboneko]

I haven't played long, but I, too, am siding with Tom.

Save points are for RPGs. They are nets. BUT.

Isn't this game supposed to be an extension of reality; a simulation of life? You don't get another chance if you get hit by a car tomorrow. Why should your Nekovalkaryja get one?

Because it's your baby, yeah sure. But if you're a parent and your "baby" dies, no reset button there either. This is an ecscape for people who don't want to have to make another character, because it is a considerable amount of time to construct a creative history and research skills, etc. <b>But these elements are what RP is about: adapting to situations skillfully and creatively.</b> If my char dies tomorrow, I'll be upset, but I'll make another and jump right back in rather than revive a dead char.

Bottom line, reserved for Government NPCs only. (E.G. Emperor and Davis)

 

[Rei]

Excusing the outpouring of 'People can just rush into death.' as a battle cry, it's not what I've seen happen. Creating that myth is a fallacy, it's up to the GM's to discourage it if someone clearly does behave that way via metagaming. And again, taking out a staple technology comprimises the RP universe more than the proposed benifits he's suggesting. If you're going to polarize us, I'm going to have to go against this one if there's no reasonable midground, which I don't see yet.

 

[Yangfan]

I plan on speaking in defense of ST technology, but I don't have the time or the concentration to do so right now. Please let me respond over the weekend.

 

[Rob]

So sure we have an OOC reason to sling it, but still... where does it suddenly disappear to? Why does it stop working?

Also, OOCly I can see what you're getting at, but IC, officers still are worthy of backups. It's fair - they earned it.

 

[Wes]

If you had the ability to preserve the lives of others, wouldn't it be morally and ethically wrong not to allow everyone access to it? Buy keeping some alive and leaving others to die, you'd be running a sort of mental eugenics program.

Taking away ST tech is literally giving your characters a death sentence.

 

[Tyler]

Then again Wes, look at my cases. I've had the ST system almost never work as it's supposed to unless I fight for it to. *sigh* And then again so is everything you do in the military every mission.

 

[Tsuki]

I'm more of a revival with a cost person because, on one side...

• It's a game! Meaning nothing has to be like real life.
• Even with things like 1ups and ST in my games, I STILL FEAR THEM DYING. This may be something simple (e.g. I have to restart from a checkpoint aways back in the level) or it might be complicated (Did the ST pods survive the blast in the whatever room? What happened to the backups? Will my character be affected because no one bothered to back her up since last wednesday?)

However, I do beleive that there should be consequence. In the arcade games, if you die, the "Continue" screen comes up, and yes, you can revive yourself, but it always flashes "Insert credits" because there's a cost to revival.

 

[Tom]

If you had the ability to preserve the lives of others, wouldn't it be morally and ethically wrong not to allow everyone access to it? Buy keeping some alive and leaving others to die, you'd be running a sort of mental eugenics program.

Taking away ST tech is literally giving your characters a death sentence.

I didn't say this was going to be an easy topic to discuss. Neither do I feel that a good society shouldn't use every means it has to preserve life.

But what I am saying is that the ST system as it is right now is so unabashedly flawed that it hurts ICly.

The ST system is flawed because:

• It allows for double standards (some characters get it, some don't. The tech isn't everyone's to have, and this means certain players get a tremendously unfair OOC advantage. The blatant OOC advantages of this go far beyond what we can IC call Yamatai's technological superiority.)
  
  It's seriously overpowered. It permits someone at anytime to be granted extra lives with absolutely no repercussions.
  
  Access to it is too easy, and tampering with it too hard. It practically has a 1% chance of failure (overpowered). There are so many ways to get your soul saved that it makes anything short of total ship destruction irrelevant.
  
  It permits behind-the-scenes abuse in regard to any percentiles being rolled, and when and if the MEGAMI systems / Soul Savior Pods are damaged (double standard). It gives GMs a way to convieniently hang a noose around players (see Tyler) while simultaneously preserving their own interests above others.
  
  There have been no social implications of having this technology, up to and including population problems, inflation, ethical questions regarding the value of life. It's a purely OOC tech.
  
  It softens players up to the realities of a military-based RP. War = killing and death. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Not to mention how hard it is with the current tech to actually kill somebody.

I sound like I'm beating a dead horse here, and I probably am. We've all pretty much taken sides on this.

So let's discuss what options we have:

1) Keep ST Tech as is. (unrealistic, OOC)
2) Modify ST tech to make it fair and balanced.
3) Scrap ST Tech completely. (unrealistic, IC)

 

[Fred]

Tom, just out of curiosity, what did you think of the New Horizon Soul DNA thingie in the first post I made on this thread? I'd do suggestions, but it'd help if I knew what your position would be on that one too.

 

[Tom]

It's interesting, but I'm not sure how applicable it'd be in SA. It'd be a stretch to modify our character's souls to act like those in the New Horizon game.

I'd also like to see permanent rather than temporary trauma.

But we should try to hammer something out on our own grounds.

 

[DocTomoe]

Honestly, if every player character had the fear of death being driven into them, they'd end up not doing the "heroic" type things that make the plot line move along, if a player character were to just sit back and do things from a "safe" spot, they'd be bout as useful as supporting cast members or an NPC. If a situation like that were to come to be, the Star Army Of Yamatai and Nepleslia war situation RPs would turn into nuke wars, where everyone would be afraid to get into their powered armor and charge at the enemy like often ordered to do so and instead go about pressing a button and releasing a bombardment that takes away from the plot.

In all truth, RP situations or gaming in general relies upon the possibility of resurrection in one way or another. At the same time prevention of doing kamikaze runs on a regular basis is carried out by the fear of losing part of your character that is important. Hmmm, that World Of Warcraft metaphor makes me think...What about an MMORPG style "exp loss" of sorts... such as a loss of one skill, loss of memories, loss of certain psychological traits, or gaining of malicious ones. There is also the possibility of a different form of resurrection, such as cybernetic resurrection where the brain of the player is then inserted into a robotic body, or container. Maybe the possibility of being converted into a ship computer personality that can be manifested by in-ship hologram, or becoming a permanent Mindy or Kylie pilot, Or an NIWS

 

[Fred]

Well, one thing I noticed was that you seemed to approveof the concept of soul transfering... but not of using it to restore life... soooo... I was thinking that since ICly this isn't feasably doable to just remove Soul Transfer in that fashion, perhaps advancement in hardware would cause a change.

The abuse from Soul Transfer comes from being able to make copies out of it... but what if you can't make copies? I'd say it could be an idea to allow soul transfering to still save lives without making it possible to save copies.

What does this mean? The crew killed in the big aether blast is quite dead and unrecoverable. The Mindy pilot smashed to smithereens with a missile volley probably is too. But if you could recover a body whom would be dying or that death is relatively recent, then, you could use the technology to 'save' life instead of plain 'ressurecting'.

It would still leave a safety net, yes, but it would also require a lot more care, making so that while there is a way to save someone from death, there are precautions to be made. When going on a mission, the persons's body might not be found and in fact, even when found, it could be too late.

I could explain it further, but I have a feeling I'm just going to aimlessly ramble on. Point is that you probably aren't going to get what you want in one fell swoop, Tom, but perhaps a there is a realisable compromise to be reached in the way technology is treated in this setting.

 

[Wes]

It allows for double standards (some characters get it, some don't. The tech isn't everyone's to have, and this means certain players get a tremendously unfair OOC advantage. The blatant OOC advantages of this go far beyond what we can IC call Yamatai's technological superiority.)

That's not a flaw. Just like how in real life some people have access to higher education and some do not, unfairness is reality.

It's seriously overpowered. It permits someone at anytime to be granted extra lives with absolutely no repercussions.

I've met a few people in Alcor's cryogenics program--basically, when they die, they'll be vitrified until technology has risen to a point at which their ailments may be cured. Because they'd be getting "an extra life" would you say that's "overpowered?"

It permits behind-the-scenes abuse in regard to any percentiles being rolled, and when and if the MEGAMI systems / Soul Savior Pods are damaged (double standard). It gives GMs a way to convieniently hang a noose around players (see Tyler) while simultaneously preserving their own interests above others.

Every aspect of a player's RP experience could be subject to "behind-the-scenes abuse" by GMs. If you can trust a GM with the plot, which will determine the chances of your character dying in the first place, you chould certainly be able to trust him with ST rolls. If don't feel like you could trust GMs to be fair, then you've got problems which are not caused by ST tech.

There have been no social implications of having this technology, up to and including population problems, inflation, ethical questions regarding the value of life. It's a purely OOC tech.

Yes there are. We run into these ST-related social issues all the time day in the RP! Look at the Sakura plot right now, for instance, or the Kai assassination, or any number of events that have happened so far that dealt with the dead returning.

It softens players up to the realities of a military-based RP. War = killing and death. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You're saying we should be suffering OOCly at the loss of characters instead of having a more fun, carefree RP experience. Fear can be a nice element of RP, but how exactly would you improve gameplay by forcing the good of others creations (to able to be RPed) to be lost forever?

 

[Harlequin]

I've got my MOS selection date tommorow, so I'll try to get this wrapped up quick before my recruiter comes by.

It's time for a one-night performance by the Smiling Man himself, by special invitation.

I see we're arguing what has to be the most seminal under-topic in the Star Army in all the time I've been here. I say under-topic because issues like this tend to get overshadowed by concerns involving unkillable races, god-technology, 'perfect' materials, and whether my female character has enough undergarments in her inventory (and in what colors no less!).

Be it for one side or another, I'll just say that I don't frankly care. Really, I don't. I was told this was a community-wide issue to which I cynically replied that I never thought of myself as part of the community nor did it affect me (even when I did have a character in the Star Army). I was invited here to say something; as tactical fire support.

And now its time to let the guns sing.

In my time here, I've noticed a few people claim ties to the military. Well, good on you my brethren. In my time here, I've also noticed someone claim that without ST technology, PC's would no longer be 'heroic'.

What.

When I read that, it struck me. The issue here is mortality, the fear of. Not privilage disparity (that'll always be there, and Wes makes a good response on this), not whether its feasable (people allow gravity guns and jump drives for God's sake), or the ethics involved (establishing a baseline for ethics to be judged as 'good' or 'evil' is entirely subjective and you're being inherently unethical by forcing people to accept your standards).

It boils down to a fear of the cessation of life.

Let's make a deal, Star Army Community. You keep reading, and I'll explain myself.

V. V. V. V. V. Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

While we live, we have power. The power to do, the power to affect, the power to change. When we don't live, we can't change. Can't affect. Can't do. Powerlessness and the lack of cheeky cheer that goes along with it.

Still with me? Good. Oh, and about that quote. It was said by a German doctor by the name of Johannes Faust.

He made a deal too.

The gloves came off with that realization. I came to understand that with that utterance, and those who took it to heart without saying otherwise (for silence is equating acceptance), that it was as if people had singularly boarded a mode of transportation to Arlington National Cemetery. Dropped their trousers. And collectively pinched off a steaming loaf on the grave of each and every single servicemember who had ever died in combat.

The implication that you require a mythical save point, a safety net, to perform deeds above and beyond the call is mind-blowing and frankly...insulting.

It would have done my smiling heart good if instead they had said, "I'm a bitch, afraid of the mortality of my perfectly unique and snowflake-like character and please don't take my ST away from me because god-forbid I should pay for the consequences of my actions. I would much rather play in a universe where I can laugh and cavort and have drinking games (on a military ship, usually on duty no less) and buttfuck the captain in the weapons bay than have to face up to the idea that I'm playing someone who is involved in a dangerous profession compounded by the presence of hard-vacuum right outside the airlock and countless bastard aliens who want me dead on principle."

Does that hurt? Did it? It should. If it hurts, it means you're still alive.

Another person on this thread wrote that if we were without ST, the carefree nature of the RP would be lost.

Care...free? As in, free from worries? Free from cares? This is a military RP?

By God, man, you've created a joke even I hadn't thought of! A military-themed game wherein I could be without worry! Without worry of injury, without worry of death, without worry that my closest friend and commrade could, in an instant, be killed. As an officer, I could play without worry that I could return to the barracks building and find empty cots and footlockers in the evening which were filled in the morning before battle. I would no longer have to worry about having to ink the forlorn words:

To whom it may concern,

It is with a heavy heart that I, (Commander's name here), must write to you to inform you that your (son/daughter) (name here) was (lost/killed) today...

Would that life could be so! But it can be, can't it? In Star Army it can. That wonderful military RP without worry, where the heroism and valor of its servicemen and women is held bond under the aegis of undying protection.

I was wrong, friends. Had I known this was the true heart of it all, I would have earnestly joined in with you so long ago.

The bombardment is over now. The guns fall silent.

And in the dark, amongst the smell of expended cordite and nitrocellulose powder, the Smiling Man's expression never changes.