The Great ST Debate

[Jadg Wolf]

Tom, I've been talking about that for a while now, and there's been nothing done about it (I'm talking about scripting, of course). "Writing your plots" shouldn't happen to begin with. Obviously, you can/should have a guideline, but you should have the characters' actions have a bigger effect than your "plan." The GM shouldn't be telling a story, and the players shouldn't be just participating in a story. The GM and players should work together to make the story. I've been against the GM thing anyway, so I stay out of those plots that have GMs. I'm not comfortable with someone being able to tell me what happens to my character. Luckily, there's been a few things for me to do without having to put myself in that situation. I'm not trying to say this absolutely has to stop, I'm just offering my opinion. As I said, there's been ways for me to RP without major use of the GM system. But anyway, ST.

Frankly Yangfan, I found your previous post more condescending than your recent one. I think you brought up a few good points, but there were some I didn't agree with. Tom covered most of the first post. I'd just like to say that I don't think "major" mistakes on the part of new people would necessitate them having to make a new character every week.

 

[Karma Mechanic]

I can only hope that we can treat ST tech in the same manner that allows us to tone down other stuff OOCly. We saw something wrong with millions of spaceships, US vs USSR type tech/race oneupmanship, and overpowered magic & psionics. We've already knocked one down OOCly (magic & psionics) and are working on the others. I think we can all agree on a desire for a balanced, easier to understand RP world.

Okay, I think by this point my opinion about ST tech is nearly the same as that of Tom; ST tech is good for the purpose that the name implies "Transfer", but for use as a giant character "copying machine". I think that ST is one of the many destabalizing technologies of this RP. I would like to bring up others, but we should stay on topic because were talking about ST now.

 

[Wes]

ST tech is good for the purpose that the name implies "Transfer", but for use as a giant character "copying machine"

In order for the data to be transferred, it must be read from the original and stored in the new body. It doesn't make sense to have the ability not to be able to copy ST data if you can read, write, and store it. In the SARP, mind ("soul") data has always been treated like files on a computer (humans having one big crazy file and Nekovalkyjra also having many, many little digital ones).

Having ST tech be transfer only would therefore be unrealistic. It'd also be unrealistic NOT to have ST tech in a world with such advanced computers and scanners.

And I think what the majority of people are saying here is that a little more realism would actually promote more FUN.

 

[Karma Mechanic]

ST tech is good for the purpose that the name implies "Transfer", but for use as a giant character "copying machine"

In order for the data to be transferred, it must be read from the original and stored in the new body. It doesn't make sense to have the ability not to be able to copy ST data if you can read, write, and store it. In the SARP, mind ("soul") data has always been treated like files on a computer (humans having one big crazy file and Nekovalkyjra also having many, many little digital ones).

Having ST tech be transfer only would therefore be unrealistic. It'd also be unrealistic NOT to have ST tech in a world with such advanced computers and scanners.

And I think what the majority of people are saying here is that a little more realism would actually promote more FUN.

I think that you have perhaps missed the point behind both of the quotes in your post (trying not to inflame anger though, plz don't kill me Wes).

My post was about the implications of the technology OOC, and how it effects the OOC RP experience, not about the existance of the tech in the SA universe. (Note the difference please everyone from both sides of debate)

In the second Quote (which was from Tom), by "realism" I think he may have ment "more like the real world"; Not realistic in the "in-game" sence, as anything can be realistic in-game if it has already been used once because it is a work of fiction.
(Point of debate #2- can everyone also try to make sure that there quotes reference who said what, it makes following the debate easier)

 

[Rob]

Just a quick post on that role call -

I fully support soul transfer technology, and only wes can really get rid of it, but I'm not adverse to arguing for or against it. Arguments do not reflect my side on the argument, but mere speculation and ideas on the subject (or just random info-giving).

 

[Wes]

Poll's up.

 

[Tom]

I encourage as many people as possible to vote.

 

[Andrew]

Ok Figured that I have let this go on long enough without giving my input.

My Vote and Why...

I voted for the ST tech to remain the same, but not be as widely available. I did so because I believed that ways to "reviveâ€

 

[Karma Mechanic]

ST tech is good for the purpose that the name implies "Transfer", but for use as a giant character "copying machine"

In order for the data to be transferred, it must be read from the original and stored in the new body. It doesn't make sense to have the ability not to be able to copy ST data if you can read, write, and store it. In the SARP, mind ("soul") data has always been treated like files on a computer (humans having one big crazy file and Nekovalkyjra also having many, many little digital ones).

Having ST tech be transfer only would therefore be unrealistic. It'd also be unrealistic NOT to have ST tech in a world with such advanced computers and scanners.

And I think what the majority of people are saying here is that a little more realism would actually promote more FUN.

What I think might be even more unrealistic in the in-game context is that the Star Army would need any recruits at all with ST tech as it stands now, they can make endless copies of the historicly best soldiers, and continue to do so indefinately.
So I guess if we want to continue the "Let's apply logic and see what we get" game we could have a few preset character templates that a person can choose for the Star Army. Though if everyone played like that everyone might realize that not only are there characters immortal, but with existing tech a ship can be made nearly immpossible to destroy too, and why even fly the damn things ourselfs anyways, even though were immortal we've got "such advanced computers" that are smart enough to control them, so why do it at all? [/sarcasm]

 

[Rob]

Biological reflexes are ALWAYS better than a computers, no matter how good it is. We react on instinct, they on logic. Anyway, the computer systems on board ships and armors DO have the ability to pilot and use the vehicles independant of their owners.
[/reality]

 

[Kayto Styles]

Biological reflexes are ALWAYS better than a computers, no matter how good it is. We react on instinct, they on logic. Anyway, the computer systems on board ships and armors DO have the ability to pilot and use the vehicles independant of their owners.
[/reality]

Uhhh biological reflexes are not.... your brain can issue the order out faster then the body can respond... you should see the bio-cybernetic arm I made it is based off current tech... the arm picks up what the brains commands are quicker then a natural arm....

 

[Rob]

Actually, mechanical reflexes have to be programmed in to meet a number of requirements (electrical message type and correct or not), and only really have on/off states. A biological limb is constantly recieving small messages from the brain, is in constant motion and does everything but simple strength and toughness better than mechs.

Why do you think biological computers are better than normal computers? They're faster.

 

[Wes]

Biological reflexes are ALWAYS better than a computers, no matter how good it is. We react on instinct, they on logic.

Logic is better than instinct because it's logical. If we relied on instinct instead of logic, we'd be no more than any other common animal.

we could have a few preset character templates that a person can choose for the Star Army.

This is already in development for the CCG, actually.

Though if everyone played like that everyone might realize that not only are there characters immortal, but with existing tech a ship can be made nearly immpossible to destroy too, and why even fly the damn things ourselfs anyways, even though were immortal we've got "such advanced computers" that are smart enough to control them

This is actually already the case.

 

[Rob]

Logic is better than instinct because it's logical. If we relied on instinct instead of logic, we'd be no more than any other common animal.

True, but instinct is faster and less likely to get you killed while you work out what do do through logic.

I remember hearing a story, once, about some guys testing robots that were built to remove a small cart containing an unconcious man and a bomb from a room.

The first robot walked in, saw the man in the cart and removed it from the room. Nice work, only it brought the bomb too.

The second robot they sent was programmed a little differently. It walked in and stood there, calculating every possible outcome of removing the man from the room. It was just proving that the walls would not turn blue as a consequence of it's actions when the bomb went off.

Finally, they sent a human in. The human walked to the cart, slung the man over his shoulder and walked out again.

Biological instinct and logic > mechanical logic.

 

[Luke]

Biological reflexes are ALWAYS better than a computers, no matter how good it is. We react on instinct, they on logic.

I think rob here (correct me if i'm wrong) was originaly talking about piloting a ship, if an enemy is firing upon you, logic would take far to long to decide where to evade, whereas instinct allows you to make quick evasive action before you are shot up.

 

[Karma Mechanic]

Bwahahaha....I have gotten everyone to already forget the original topic of debate(or maybe we've just exhusted all possible viewpoints by now 0_o)

]This is actually already the case.

Wait what?!?! -Scribbles head explodes-

 

[Wes]

Biological reflexes are ALWAYS better than a computers, no matter how good it is. We react on instinct, they on logic.

I think rob here (correct me if i'm wrong) was originaly talking about piloting a ship, if an enemy is firing upon you, logic would take far to long to decide where to evade, whereas instinct allows you to make quick evasive action before you are shot up.

Of course, that's totally wrong because computers can go though that logic way faster than humans can. If you need an example, play Tekken 5 against the PS2 on the highest difficulty sometime.

 

[Rob]

Tekken 5 != 3 dimensional high tech fleet to fleet warfare 8P

 

[Yangfan]

So very much off topic...

Anyhoo, organics are good at setting goals. Computers are good at executing them. Ask a MEGAMI what her goals are, and she will give you some tenets such as preserving humanity, destroying the Empire's enemies and such, but nothing in the way of short-term and medium-term objectives. And even then, she's just repeating what she's been told.

That's why the highest links of the command chain (captain and above) have to be organics.

As for why we haven't replaced the grunts with AIs yet, um, ask Wes.

 

[Zakalwe]

Well ... NovaCorp AI's could tell you, but they're a lot more ... expressive.

And actually NovaCorp has developed a type of war android that it is planning on piloting there ships with.