The Great ST Debate

[Tsuki]

I have a solution that won't involve ST tech disappearing from the face of the... Yamatai. Howzabout as the characters age and get more memories, personality, etc. that the system can't quite restore all of their "soul," if you will. There could be errors in personality or memory, or, like Wes said, the software could get inaccurate and generate the wrong body type, etc. Then there's that clearly visible chance that the character's soul is so damaged that it can't be revived.

A chart would look something like this:

Chance of:
20% - Successful ST
20% - Memory Damage
20% - Personality Damage
20% - Other Non-Fatal Error
20% - Fatal Error

This way, 4 of 5 ST backups will get some kind of error, making ST risky, and then there's the 1/5 chance that error will be fatal.[/list]

 

[Cora]

No, those are Black ops.

They more then likely work for PUGN. Or whatever that acronym is.

Remember, they didn't attack the Soul Savior device, they mearly wanted the Mushh-neko.

 

[Nyton]

Oh yeah now I remember something. Despite the whole ST thing no one really wants to die. I mean, sometimes dying hurts. A lot. Just because you'll have a backup you walking around doesn't mean the desire to avoid it won't be there.

However the trivializing of life can have an effect on things in game. Not too long ago when I was pitching my league sport idea with the lasers and such I kept saying it should only stun people but some advocated that with ST tech the lasers could be fatal. Personally I didn't like the idea since I felt it took the level of the sport above just 'competition' and right to straight 'blood sport' like in gladiator colliseum days. I didn't completely rule the idea out for later use since it may have been a fun plot hook. But yeah, I think even with ST people still rise above the call of duty since you know, the strength of will and the essence of heroism can triumph over death in a world where there isn't any ST. And they'll still do it for the good old fasioned 'because it was the right thing to do' reason over the 'because I knew I had a backup' one.

 

[Kayto Styles]

Just to make fun of this subject I'm gonna start planning on having a guy die 69 different times.... some one high enough to be important enough or worth it to keep giving him body's.. I swear then every time I post It will be some freak mouse trap way of dieing........

 

[Rei]

Just to make fun of this subject I'm gonna start planning on having a guy die 69 different times.... some one high enough to be important enough or worth it to keep giving him body's.. I swear then every time I post It will be some freak mouse trap way of dieing........

So you can metagame and annoy others to prove a point that you're supposed to be making here? No, I'm sorry that won't be happening. You'll have to think of something else. Regardless, the issue has become rather moot to me, sufficed to say any major change will serve more to hinder, and pervert what's already been set.

 

[Kayto Styles]

How would I be metagaming if it's my own character dieing? And on an off topic question do Power Armors have lock on tones? as if your being locked on by an enemy is there a warning system?

 

[Zakalwe]

Why would they? It all depends on what type of locking system your using. If it's using a laser targeter, maybe, if it's using something more basic or more advanced, I don't see why it would.

 

[Jadg Wolf]

Kayto, you'd be metagaming because you'd be taking OOC information IC. It doesn't matter if it "only affects your character." So, ST tech.

 

[Zakalwe]

Yes:

There is no IC reason to get rid of it, changing it would be retconing it, which isn't good.

And so, short of a religous fundamentalist group taking over the empire and banning the technology on religous grounds: It's not going anywhere.

 

[Fred]

But wouldn't there also be the possibility of technological advances making it so that current ST technology would have to be updated? Say, the NH-29's brain composition could be sufficiently different to warrant an update of the tech.

But lo and behold, maybe the anti-neko factions in the Empire would be tired of seeing Empress Yui change bodies continuously as time moves on, making Nekos look like they'll be around forever instead of a 'frail species' like the Geshrin are. Pressure could be made so that the ST technology wouldn't be produced in the same way it was before to 'alleviate' concerns, making it possible to do body transfers only in specialized facilities and replacing the ST devices on board ships to allow for 'soul suspension' instead of it's copying capabilities.

What would that mean? Instead of using ST tech to ressurect an individual, it could instead be used to 'ressucitate', which has some potent story repercussions. Right now, a Mindy pilot can boldy go forth in a battle and, if she's zapped into atoms by an aether beam, well, respawn in medbay and go out again.

On the other hand, with the 'soul suspension' variant, the same Mindy pilot would be unrecoverable : her body was destroyed. The technology would only work by having the dying or recently dead body returned to the medbay where the procedure for saving the individual could take place.

It could have been used to save Hanako from 'dying' altogether by putting her mental signature in suspension until her body would have been healed enough to sustain life or that she would have had another body to be used (the device possibly keeping her mind alive until the said ship could return to a facility with a 'true' Soul transfer device).

Back with DocTomoe's Miles, if the said character would have been roasted up by the explosion, it would have been possible to place him on the table and be able to ressucitate with the usage of that tool along with lot's of assisted hemosynthesis.

If people wouldn't be as prone to sacrifice themselves since they would need their bodies to be ressuciated and up and about again and that character's soul could only have one 'instance', this could reach what Tom would desire about making life seem less taken for granted while still providing the, pardon me, safety net some others would like to have.

 

[Rei]

That's speculation pure and simple. What Thomas is saying echoes exactly what the bottom line was at the first page of this. Also, what anti-Neko factions? You're aware just how much of the Empire's population is made of Yamataians that were former NH-17 models? Few people know what Yui is actually like, that's why command of the YSA is left in her hands. You're postulating on something that won't happen, and would be just as improbable if the Mikomi turned into the yellow submarine.

 

[Zakalwe]

Oh God I hope that happens.

ST is also needed for the fun occasion when someone wants to switch bodies, which is always great fun.

 

[Tom]

So, positions have been laid down, pretty divisive stuff.

I think Kotori is certainly onto something, and I do like the suggestions of ressucitation over ressurection.

Everything that's been argued has been argued.

I say we lay the groundwork for some changes, whether IC or OOC. There have been some very interesting suggestions in this thread, and I'm sure we have a way of going about this.

Just so I can get a roll call of opinions (Full support, full opposition, middle = people who have varying opinions.)

Full support - 4 (Zakalwe, Rei, Wes, Blas((I think)) )

Full opposition - 7 (Tom, Kayto, Fang, Cora, Turboneko, Harlequin, Rine )

Middle - 11 (Kotori, Raz, Doc Tomoe, Rob, Kimura, Tyler, Jadg, Tsuki, Scribbles, Kim((I think)), Tsuki )

This is the conclusion I make based on the votes tallied. I don't want to look like I'm trying to prematurely close the discussion in my favor.

 

[Cora]

Jadg is against ST tech. He just prefers valid reasons how it can be removed ICly.

 

[Rei]

"Tallying" means nothing when you make up your own legitimacy. There's nothing official to this of yet.

 

[Daniel]

hmm, I dont know where I stand, sure its useful but is it abuseable?

 

[Tom]

"Tallying" means nothing when you make up your own legitimacy. There's nothing official to this of yet.

I hardly see anything wrong with taking the opinions of everyone and dividing them into categories.

"Making up your own legitimacy" would be me, alone, demanding that ST be taken down because of my board status or some other nonsense.

On the contrary, I presented an open forum and have collected the opinions of many of the people here. Anyone who's taken basic public opinion classes would know this is fairly normal.

If that's not enough to try to push along a subject, I move for a vote of some sort on the matter.

 

[Yangfan]

*shuffles notes*

Get something to drink. This might take a while.

This is NOT a rant. Everything I will say is relevant. Okay, almost everything I will say is relevant. I'm only human.

First things first. Harlequin, I'm not sure if you know this, but Wes, along with a few other players on this site, are or were members of the US Armed Forces. Their colleagues come home in coffins almost everyday. I think you can figure out why Wes created a military RP where PC death is rare. Hint: It's NOT because he was afraid of his characters dying.

Moving on, I want to touch on a few points that have not been fully responded to:

* ST Tech leads to unnatural population growth: True. ST tech has only been around for three decades or so, however, and Nepleslians and Geshrins don't reproduce fast enough to make much of a difference yet. Nekos can reproduce as fast as they want, and their numbers pretty much go up exponentially during war time, if you don't account for casualties. Note that the number of systems colonized by the Empire have grown substantially in the mean time. Also note that trillions of Nekos have died in action during the various wars. (ST seems to be useful only for the PCs. I will explain why later.) Realistic enough for you?

* ST Tech's impact player behavior: I strongly disagree with Tom on this one. If you care about your characters, you will give the characters behaviors that are conducive to them staying alive, ST Tech or no ST Tech. If you don't care about your characters, you will have the characters act recklessly, ST Tech or no ST Tech. Forcing a player to come up with a new character each time he makes a mistake, not considering all the emotional stuff, is only slowing him down and keeping him from the RP. In addition, some of us don't have a lot of free time. We'd disappear for at least weeks every time we'd have to make a new character.

* ST Tech make GM-kills meaningless: You guys feel this way too? Good! One of the most vile diseases that GMs contract is the "me versus them" mentality. My fellow GMs, I remind you of this, but I'm sure you know this already: A roleplaying game is NOT a competition between you and the players to see who gets the most kills. PCs are NOT things that you collect for your trophy room. You can't kill the PCs even if they do something stupid? Find some other way of punishing them and making them miserable. Use your imagination. Besides, ST Tech also protects certain key NPCs from biting the dust before they activate certain lynchpin plot triggers. I don't know about you, but I don't have the time or the willpower to re-write my plots all day.

* Realism versus Fun: Wars are still realistic. Trillions of Nekos have died in the last few IC years. So why do the PCs get to stay safe, fat, and happy? Well, it's obvious: "keep the players happy". Seriously, you people say it like it's a bad thing. This is supposed to be fun. We try to keep this as realistic as possible, both in terms of technology and believability, given the setting, but this is also supposed to be fun. And since politeness was thrown out the window a few pages back, I'll say this: if you really want to participate in a realistic military sim, why not go for the real thing instead? They'd be happy to have you. (I'm well aware that some of you have taken my advice. Before I even suggested it, no less.)

* Burden of Proof: Finally, I'd like to say this to Tom: You're arguing for change, which is never an easy thing to do, and I applaud you for it. However, I remind you that the burden of proof is on you. And quite frankly, all I have seen so far are theories and rhetoric. Show me (and Wes and Rune/Andrew) some concrete proof, man. If you don't feel comfortable doing it here, PM us the transcripts or links that reveal the detrimental effects that ST Tech has on the RP. I want to be convinced. I want to agree with you that there is a problem so that we can start figuring out how to fix it. But I don't catch up with every plot line, and you're going to have to shove it in my face, pin it on my door, etc.

Having said all that, I want to let all the new players know that all the Admins and GMs here are always open to suggestions on how the RP is ran. Nothing is sacred, as long as you don't get personally insulting. Attacks on our persons are not welcome. Attacks on our ideas are VERY welcome. The only reason Tom is bringing this up is because he knows that we'll hear him out.

And finally, I see that quite a few people agree with Tom. You guys certainly have leverage in this, as this RP is nothing without its players. However, I hope you guys will carefully consider the opinions and points of the rest of us, and not think "we have a majority, this discussion is over". The majority is not always right.

 

[Tom]

Burden of Proof: Finally, I'd like to say this to Tom: You're arguing for change, which is never an easy thing to do, and I applaud you for it. However, I remind you that the burden of proof is on you. And quite frankly, all I have seen so far are theories and rhetoric. Show me (and Wes and Rune/Andrew) some concrete proof, man. If you don't feel comfortable doing it here, PM us the transcripts or links that reveal the detrimental effects that ST Tech has on the RP. I want to be convinced. I want to agree with you that there is a problem so that we can start figuring out how to fix it. But I don't catch up with every plot line, and you're going to have to shove it in my face, pin it on my door, etc.

I don't think I have the time to spend hours (days?) sifting through hundreds, if not thousands of posts to find a couple instances of ST abuse (this includes the old RP board).

I can only hope that the majority of people, some of who have been around longer than I, can come up with any instances of weird/abusive ST use.

And finally, I see that quite a few people agree with Tom. You guys certainly have leverage in this, as this RP is nothing without its players. However, I hope you guys will carefully consider the opinions and points of the rest of us, and not think "we have a majority, this discussion is over". The majority is not always right.

I can only hope, as well, that a majority opinion would carry more leverage than you're implying. There have been several promising modifications to ST tech that have been brought up in this discussion that would please almost everybody.

I can only hope that we can treat ST tech in the same manner that allows us to tone down other stuff OOCly. We saw something wrong with millions of spaceships, US vs USSR type tech/race oneupmanship, and overpowered magic & psionics. We've already knocked one down OOCly (magic & psionics) and are working on the others. I think we can all agree on a desire for a balanced, easier to understand RP world.

* Realism versus Fun: Wars are still realistic. Trillions of Nekos have died in the last few IC years. So why do the PCs get to stay safe, fat, and happy? Well, it's obvious: "keep the players happy". Seriously, you people say it like it's a bad thing. This is supposed to be fun. We try to keep this as realistic as possible, both in terms of technology and believability, given the setting, but this is also supposed to be fun. And since politeness was thrown out the window a few pages back, I'll say this: if you really want to participate in a realistic military sim, why not go for the real thing instead? They'd be happy to have you. Smile (I'm well aware that some of you have taken my advice. Before I even suggested it, no less.)

I can't see how explaining how Neko are cannon fodder helps the argument for ST, either. I could kill everyone on Nepleslia and that'd be as relevant as what you're saying in regard to ST tech. Killing a bajillion NPCs has no correlation to how many PCs die.

And I think what the majority of people are saying here is that a little more realism would actually promote more FUN. Without real life bullets, of course.

ST Tech's impact player behavior: I strongly disagree with Tom on this one. If you care about your characters, you will give the characters behaviors that are conducive to them staying alive, ST Tech or no ST Tech. If you don't care about your characters, you will have the characters act recklessly, ST Tech or no ST Tech. Forcing a player to come up with a new character each time he makes a mistake, not considering all the emotional stuff, is only slowing him down and keeping him from the RP.

I doubt every mistake a player makes would result in their character's horrible death. We play fairly soft as it is in regards to getting players killed. Major, crippling mistakes, however, should result in a serious consequence, up to and including character death.

I think we can trust our GMs to not recklessly kill players. If they did, nobody would play for them.

Besides, ST Tech also protects certain key NPCs from biting the dust before they activate certain lynchpin plot triggers. I don't know about you, but I don't have the time or the willpower to re-write my plots all day.

This is a HUGE problem. Not only are you taking away the importance of a player's actions just because their ingenuity MAY result in something you haven't planned on, but you're holding your own NPC above the PCs. PCs should be allowed to do anything within their realistic capabilities. PCs shouldn't have to be led by the hand. You should create a dynamic environment for them to interact with, even fi their actions may result in something you don't like happening. UNPREDICTABILITY and variety are the spices of life.

We're basically batting opinions around here. I mean I can just as easily say that we shouldn't have to wait for something to go wrong with ST tech just because things look ok on the surface.

 

[Yangfan]

I don't think I have the time to spend hours (days?) sifting through hundreds, if not thousands of posts to find a couple instances of ST abuse (this includes the old RP board).

Only a few instances in the last few OOC years of the RP? Sounds like a non-problem to me.

I can only hope that we can treat ST tech in the same manner that allows us to tone down other stuff OOCly. We saw something wrong with millions of spaceships, US vs USSR type tech/race oneupmanship, and overpowered magic & psionics. We've already knocked one down OOCly (magic & psionics) and are working on the others. I think we can all agree on a desire for a balanced, easier to understand RP world.

Actually, if I wasn't such a stooge, I'd raise my eyebrows at Wes for suddenly reducing the fleet sizes like that. Now everyone runs around trying to affect things OOCly... Not that there's much wrong with that.

I can't see how explaining how Neko are cannon fodder helps the argument for ST, either. I could kill everyone on Nepleslia and that'd be as relevant as what you're saying in regard to ST tech. Killing a bajillion NPCs has no correlation to how many PCs die.

Like I said, I don't believe this to be a problem. Not many roleplaying games give PCs and NPCs equal treatment. That's why we call them by different names. ^_^ (I apologize if I sound condenscending. I'm too tired to be diplomatic right now.)

I doubt every mistake a player makes would result in their character's horrible death. We play fairly soft as it is in regards to getting players killed. Major, crippling mistakes, however, should result in a serious consequence, up to and including character death.

I think we can trust our GMs to not recklessly kill players. If they did, nobody would play for them.

Yes, but it will be so much easier to off someone, rather than coming up with a creative punishment. I'll inform Wes to prepare a "report reckless GM" feature while Andrew sews up the PC bodybags. ^_^ (I'm just plain cranky now. I better wrap this up. Again, apologies. You know I don't normally talk like this.)

And new players make "major" mistakes quite often when they're just starting out and learning the setting. I sincerely doubt that all of them will tolerate having to make a new character every week. And I do believe that that's how often they'll end up making new chars.

This is a HUGE problem. Not only are you taking away the importance of a player's actions just because their ingenuity MAY result in something you haven't planned on, but you're holding your own NPC above the PCs. PCs should be allowed to do anything within their realistic capabilities. PCs shouldn't have to be led by the hand. You should create a dynamic environment for them to interact with, even fi their actions may result in something you don't like happening. UNPREDICTABILITY and variety are the spices of life.

I'd like to offer my players unpredictability, but given the choice, I'm pretty sure they'd prefer the occasional "hand-holding" (tee-hee) over huge delays in the plot. Celia plot posts don't come often enough as it is.